In this episode of The Kula Ring, Jeff and Carman talk with Logan Dunn and Chris Silva of ClearBags about avoiding vanity metrics, finding the numbers that matter for your company, and building the right tech stack.
Don’t Be Blinded By Your Data Transcript:
Announcer: You’re listening to the Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White.
Jeff: Welcome to the Kula Ring. My name is Jeff White, with Kula Partners, and joining me is Carman Pirie. Today on the program we have Chris Silva and Logan Dunn of ClearBags.com, manufacturer of packaging and other materials like that. Carman, why don’t you introduce our guests?
Carman: You know what they manufacture, it’s kind of in the name.
Jeff: Yeah, it’s right there.
Carman: Chris is the digital marketing manager, Logan, you’re the marketing director. Why don’t we turn it over to you to introduce yourselves very briefly as we get the show underway? Chris, why don’t you start?
Chris: Yeah, so I’m Chris, I’ve been in digital marketing for just over a decade. I’ve worked on everything from local bakeries to US government agencies, to state agencies, to national brands. Kind of had my hands in everything. I’m somewhat well-rounded in the digital marketing space.
Logan: I’m Logan Dunn, I’m the marketing director here at ClearBags. I actually have a background in marketing and strategy. I’ve been at ClearBags for a little under three years. Prior to that, I worked on another big manufacturing company, 3M. I also have a background in kind of new media, and digital marketing, as well, I’ve done some of my own site digital marketing, ecommerce sites. ClearBags is kind of the perfect mix for my skill set. Anyway, excited to be here with you guys.
Carman: Excited as well. Look, I’ve got to say, anytime somebody talks about a marketer who has coded a few things on their own, that’s when I like to bring up my only personal coding experience, which is a little bit of HTML work on a Ning site back in the day, which is embarrassing as all get out. I only bring it up, because I can watch Jeff cringe as I bring it up … We’re like an old married couple now, and basically, this kills him.
Jeff: No, I don’t think so, because I mean, if you actually even remember what Ning is, it means you’ve been in the social media space for a long time.
Carman: There you go.
Chris: I was about to say, I’ve never heard of that. I thought that, you know, me being on Friendster and whatnot back in the day was social media extreme history.
Jeff: That was pretty early, sure. Ning was a way to stand up your own social network for small communities of interest. It was founded by Mark Andreessen who also started a little-known company called Netscape.
Chris: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Carman: So, well, Chris has established himself as a young whippersnapper in the call today. I’ve got to say for the listeners, this is the first Kula Ring podcast that we’ve done that has four people talking. So I’m certain my mother would say that now that we have four men yammering along, that we can be assured that nothing interesting is going to come of it. So with that apology, I would say to our dear listeners, feel free to just skip the rest of the episode. But if you feel like sticking by with us, we’ll see if we can make it worth your while. Let’s just get underway.
I’d like to maybe hear Logan’s thoughts on this. In some of our conversations in the lead up to today’s show, we talked about the challenges that people have in creating, basically, teams and environments that embrace change. I believe the line that was mentioned was that it was critical to foster an environment in a team that’s able to tackle change, I like the last part of that, and leave baggage behind. So it sounds like you at least are doing that, or starting down that path, or have done that. Talk to me about the how. What does that look like and how have you done it?
Logan: Yeah. So first, I’ll preface it by saying that what you talk about is extremely difficult. I mean, managing change is kind of an age old issue with business, right? But it’s especially relevant with the fast pace of technology right now, and how quickly the different SAAS solutions can affect your business. So being able to manage change quickly is really important. I just want to, I guess, kind of start with the idea of Clayton Christensen’s disruptive innovation.
He goes in, and talks about how as your industry or your markets change, you have to be able to set up a culture for change, and really shift into an entirely new way of doing business. He talks about creating entirely new structures and things like that. You know, when it comes to change, so I guess to kind of let your listening audience know, so yeah, we make clear bags, but we also do all sorts of flexible packaging. We’re really a packaging company specializing in that soft, flexible range. We service a ton of industries from photographers and artists, to food manufacturers, to cannabis. We really can provide packaging for almost any industry.
But traditionally, we’ve always been B2B. Been around for 26 years now, and we started as a catalog to call center. Here is our price list, call us up. Let us know what you want, we’ll give you an order. But what’s obviously the trend- Well, the trend is eCommerce. You know? We’ve got Amazon changing the entire eCommerce landscape. In order to even keep up with buying cycles, even in the B2B world, it’s more and more eCommerce. I want to just go, order my product, click, done, it’s going to get to me, I don’t have to interface with anyone, I can do it on my own time, my own schedule.
So we have to manage that change. Kind of going to that disruptive innovation idea, I mean, you can’t be catalog to call center and eCommerce without kind of struggling at one or the other. So what we have done to manage that change is we’ve really tried to set up an entirely digital marketing arm inside of our business that treats our online business like its own separate business. It’s harder to implement the idea of disruptive innovation, they say that you should totally, completely separate yourself if you really want to have that. That’s a hard thing to do, right? Convince owners to start a separate business just for that.
But we’ve been trying to kind of do that internally to have something that has a little bit of its own control over what’s happening in the eCommerce space, what’s happening with our digital channels. As we’ve set up some structure, employees, like Chris, who can kind of have some free rein on the eCommerce space, that allows us to change, and to convince the company, and … Data, too. So I’ll stop rambling, let you ask some more questions, sorry.
Carman: I believe that in conversations I had earlier with a marketer at GE Industrial on an earlier podcast, actually, I think the criticality of that, the notion of requiring your own P&L on the eComm side of the house in order to essentially prove the ROI of the digital marketing efforts and the newfound focus on a new way of doing business. I don’t want to put too many words in her mouth, but if my memory serves, she really believed that that was the catalyst for it being able to secure ongoing senior management support of the initiative.
Logan: It’s so funny that you say that, because open on my desktop right now is our eCommerce cost versus revenue kind of breakdown. We do keep a P&L for each of our eCommerce channels that we have. So, 100% right what you said.
Chris: Yeah, and I also, to add onto that, I think that the landscape has kind of changed from a one-to-many, where say ClearBags would go out, and we’d go to trade shows, and we’d send out our catalogs, and we’d find other people in the industry, and we’d kind of do outwardly… outreach to get companies interested in what we do. Then they would come to us, they would buy, and they would become a customer, and they would stay with us because of our really good customer service, and our selection, you know. All that stuff.
I think that the landscape over the last 10, 15 years has really flipped that on its head. Now it’s becoming a many-to-one, right? Now it’s like you have to not only do the trade show thing, do what we would consider to be like digital marketing approach, but then you also have to open a storefront on Amazon, you also have to sell on Walmart, you also have to sell on whatever other channels, and Facebook, like social. You have to dive in there, and they’re allowing people, now, to create storefronts on those mediums. You know, now it’s instead of one P&L, now it’s like you’ve got 10. Now you’ve got to prove the worth of all of your channels.
Carman: I can tell you that the level of sophistication that you’re speaking of in your marketing analytics, and ROI tracking is at a few orders of magnitude higher than many manufacturers that are at least double your size. It’s an impressive thing that you’ve built. How has that transformed how the senior leadership has embraced the role of marketing in the firm?
Logan: I would say that …
Chris: I think Logan would be able to speak a little bit more historically to it. I mean, at least from what I’ve experienced at ClearBags so far, everything is on the table, right? Everything is to be considered. It doesn’t mean everything is going to happen, right? But I think the stance of having an open mind and looking at everything critically, and being honest about what it is that you’re going into and having kind of like a plan, a living, breathing plan like something that you can kind of change on the fly, and be able to pivot quickly on, I think, is crucial to having senior leadership kind of buy into ideas, just knowing that if something isn’t going right, that you’re going to be able to move on it and be able to change. A lot of the platform services, a lot of the marketing plans and stuff, I mean, that’s almost a given, nowadays.
Logan: With so many new technologies, new things that are out there, we kind of have a policy at ClearBags of if you can justify the return on investment, you know, bonus points if it’s cash flow positive, we really are willing to invest in it. But in order to justify an ROI, you have to find the metrics that are really working for your organization. I mean, think about it like Facebook, Google, all these other places, they all have very similar metrics, but there’s really a lot of differences in them. Like, what is a conversion? How does Facebook track a conversion on their advertising platform versus Google? I mean, it’s different.
While it’s the same, it’s like, oh, you invested this much and then you know, you paid $40 for this conversion, or whatever, well, Facebook tracks that very differently. So you have to know what metric works for you and your company, and a solid understanding of that, really, is what we’ve tried of get. As we get that, we’ve been able to basically convince our controller to invest in a lot of marketing things. I would say, we as a company, have a very strong investment in the digital marketing space because we’ve been looking at the right metrics.
Chris: Yeah, and also, too, you know, what is the objective of the campaigns?
Chris: How are they performing? I mean, you’re not going to look at the click through metrics of a Facebook engagement objective, like if you want people to engage with your page, and you want them to like, share, comment, subscribe, do whatever they do, you’re not going to care about clicks to your website. Right? You’re going to care about engagement metrics.
Famously, my mom calls me up, and she tells me how her Facebook campaigns, she’s a business manager for a small business, and she tells me. She’s like, yeah, we hired this agency, and our Facebook posts, like, they’re all right, but no one is liking, or commenting on them, and I just don’t think it’s working. I just asked her, well, what’s the … Why are you on Facebook and what’s your objective there? Because if the campaign isn’t set up in a way that is going for likes, and shares, and comments, then there is … You’re not going to get that. The people may be clicking through to the site, and you just wouldn’t know it unless you saw the report of the clicks.
Logan: Yeah, and that’s even more relevant with business to business. When you’re talking about manufacturing marketers, specifically, many of your listeners are business to business, right? Knowing that, exactly what Chris talked about, is critical.
Carman: In so many, you get bogged down in vanity metrics without a really solid, hard look at what are we trying to accomplish with this? What’s going to be the best indicator of that? Frankly, I think a good number of marketers, even if they can determine that, then they don’t have necessarily the talent either in house or in their repertoire of relationships to actually enable the tracking, or the tech stack may not even accommodate it. How much of the work that you’ve done in the last while has been focused around readying the tech stack to be able to give you that level of data insight that you’re currently able to extract?
Logan: Oh, man, I smile when you say that. It makes me feel justified, because we’ve done so much work there. I mean, this is one of our things about, going back to that first question about change, and getting people ready for change. We felt it was a necessary investment for us to get a tech stack that can facilitate the change that we want to make. So we upgraded our ERP, we moved to a new eCommerce platform, we’ve implemented multiple SAAS tools, and we’ve just, as a company, decided we’re going to make a large investment in getting our tech stack current, because we want to be a digital marketing company. We want that part of our company to thrive, and not just rely on this catalog to call center mentality that we’ve had in the past.
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Carman: With that, I just have this nagging desire to talk about this one sentence that you offered in some of our pre-show commentary, where you said that people may use your products in a different way then you’ve been able to identify through trend data. So you were speaking, I think, in that moment of the importance of social listening and other ways of, I guess, in some ways, looking beyond the immediate data sources to get some understanding. I was left with the notion that … Jokingly, perhaps, as a Canadian, this notion of data blindness similar to driving through a snowstorm and snow blindness, you know? It seemed to me that you were, in that moment, recognizing that, and perhaps taking some steps to ensure that you weren’t being blindsided in that way.
Chris: I think a lot of that has to do, or at least kind of providing the clarity to that has to do to just listening to your customers, right? Listening to them, going and visiting them, seeing how they use your products, seeing what their pain points are with them. Yeah, social listening, listening on every channel that you have, you know? I’m not saying like every time they buy something, to like inundate them with, why did you buy this? How is it working? You know? Like, some companies do.
I mean, there is something to be said to … Like we implemented a solution on our site that when people purchased something, right at the checkout screen, it then says, hey, you know, we’d like to know why you purchased this. Then those comments get posted right on the product page for other people to then maybe spur an idea. So maybe someone is buying a bag that’s traditionally used to sell candy in candy stores, and then someone else is buying it because they use it to store nuts and bolts in their garage or something. I mean, those kind of inputs, yeah.
Logan: Yeah, and we learn from that, right? It’s not just our customers learning from each other, but it’s us learning from them at the same time.
Carman: Yeah, introduce new use cases that you didn’t know existed before, and of course, that opens up the marketing opportunity.
Chris: Yeah, exactly.
Logan: That’s the core of what you’re saying about some people are using our products for things that you might not have known. We have certain bags we developed specifically for the photo and art industry, for holding four by six photos. We’ll find out that a cookie manufacturer, totally different industry, is using those bags to sell their cookies because they really like showcasing their food just like a piece of art. You know, I mean, that’s not what we invented the bag, manufactured, made the bag for, right? But that’s what people are using it for. It’s what Chris said. There is no substitute with all of the SAAS solutions, and flashy tech marketing stuff, that is exciting and sexy, there is no substitution for going back to the four or five Cs, depending on your model, and the four Ps of marketing, and really focusing on your consumer, delighting them. That’s always at the core.
Carman: Maybe it’s just the old timer marketer in me or something, but I like the fact that there still seems to be a bit of nuanced qualitative nature to the interpretation here, that it’s not just about being blindly data driven, but rather letting the data inform some level of more qualitative-
Jeff: Allowing yourself to be lead. I think what’s interesting about that is it goes back to what we were saying earlier on in the podcast about the openness to change, and the openness to try new things. I mean, you look at, certainly in a SAAS type context, where they’re really used to standing up new campaigns very quickly, developing metrics from them, modifying that, and then tweaking, and having a whole new kind of marketing dream of bringing potential prospects into the company. But you can do that as well from, when you’re a physical goods manufacturer, you can learn that there is a whole new way that people are using product, and then standing that up as an idea, and kind of going at it from another direction.
Chris: I truly believe that it’s super dangerous to only make data driven decisions, because I’ve heard so many times that I’ve even thought this myself sometimes. It’s like, oh, well, feelings aren’t a part of the equation. Like, I just look at the data, and then I make a decision. When, really, I mean, data is like a photograph, like a photograph says a thousand words, and photographs don’t lie. I think we all know, nowadays, if you’ve ever seen a movie in the theaters, or ever seen a digitally edited photograph, photographs can lie all the time. Data can lie all the time. Data can be misleading. Right? I mean, if you … Yeah. It totally is. Statistical skewing, and spinning, and all of that stuff, I mean, that’s super real. I’ve been in meetings where people are presenting data that I could see right through it. I just go, oh, I know exactly why that happened, and actually, these results are somewhat empty.
Logan: So can I just share a specific example that goes along with what Chris just said, and uses your analogy of the snow blindness. I mean, so, for example, for us, we were trying to get more traffic to our site using our Google ads. We wanted to invest more, but we just could not go beyond the ceiling of a certain budget, because whenever we tried to go beyond that ceiling, what would happen is we’d look at this cost per conversion metric, or return on ad spend metric, which is what everyone tracks their campaigns. This is the best metric to look at. But when we focused on that metric, we could not convince our controller to give us more money. We could not up our budget at all, which meant we could not get more traffic to the site.
We were just kind of stuck at a status quo of this much budget, and trying to improve. We could grow a little bit because as we got more efficient, then the cost per conversion or return on ad spend went down a little, it was great. But it was so slow. So instead, it was like, okay, well what do we do? What are the real metrics that matter to us? Right? This is where the snow blindness comes in. If you just focus on this metrics, you might miss the real story here. So we said, well, what matters to us? It’s going to be different for every company. It was how many new customers these ads are bringing in, and then what is the lifetime value of your new customer?
Once we started looking at those, and we did a bunch of analysis, statistical analysis to really find what our projected six year lifetime value of a customer was. Now we watch new customers, we flag every customer that comes over from Google ads, a new customer acquired by Google, and now we can divide the total amount that we get versus that new customer, and we can also look at each of these new customers is going to bring this much over the lifetime.
So now when we took that to our controller and to our ownership, and we said, now look at this. This will paint the real picture. Each of these new customers that we bring in is going to cost us this much. It doesn’t look like an immediate strong, positive return. But, over the course, we know that we’re going to get this much out of that customer. Instantly, it was like a light bulb went on in our controller’s head, and we were able to just continue to spend. The growth then, from that channel of advertising, just skyrocketed. So we can’t get blind by looking at the wrong metrics, with so much data out there, we have to make sure we’re finding the metrics that make sense for our company.
Chris: Yeah, exactly. What I was talking about was essentially the exact opposite of that. People can go the other way with it, too. This is an example of that- doing the right thing.
Carman: That’s fantastic. It may, actually, be just the switch of how you started to look at that, and the change that resulted from it, I don’t know, may be the answer to my next question or it may not. I’m curious if you can answer it without giving away too much secret sauce. Logan, what do you think is the best marketing decision you guys have made in the last 18 months?
Logan: Oh, man. Oh.
Carman: You guys are so good, there are so many good decisions, that it’s an encyclopedic exercise, is that it?
Logan: Yeah. I honestly … I think the best, biggest win for us in the last 18 months with marketing is changing the way we structured our marketing department, because it allows us to adopt new things quicker, and be more swift in how we market the company. That was developing this more digital arm, rolling eCommerce, and marketing, and IT kind of together. Really setting us up for successful wins down the road. I mean, that, to me, was probably the biggest win. But it’s what Chris said, I mean, are we talking digital advertising wins? Are we talking wins with user experience? I mean, at that point, there’s so many different things that we could say are good and bad, and we’re learning as we go, watching that data.
Carman: I didn’t presume to know the answer to the question when I asked it. I was just curious what the response would be. I think that proved to be rather entertaining. It leads me to want to let you guys keep going and give me a few more of the good things, or amazing things that you’ve done that the audience might be able to learn from.
Logan: So one thing that I think is really exciting that we just kind of branched into is a newer technology that kind of goes along with listening and understanding your customers, and it’s conversational marketing. So we adopted a chat tool called Drift. Its whole idea is live chat on the site, but it’s also making your live chat work for you from a sales standpoint, and getting your customers to engage with you, when they want to, how they want to. Chris, and kind of some of the pre show material that he provided talked a little bit about this, like reaching customers at the right channel, whether it’s Amazon, or Walmart, or on our website, or over the phones.
But also on our website, how we’re reaching them. Do they want chat? Do they want a form? Drift lets us really reach our customers how we want. It’s kind of exciting being able to interact with customers right away, and this idea of conversational marketing. That’s been something that I, personally, have been excited about. What about you, Chris? What are some of the things you’ve been most excited about?
Chris: Yeah. So, I was going to say that coming into ClearBags and having experience in a bunch of different companies’ analytics, and kind of the way that they’re set up for their data tracking and whatnot, I would say the biggest win that I’ve seen here is in the organization of the data. Right? Everyone has some sort of analytics solution, be it Google analytics, Adobe, whatever it is you use there. But I mean, I’ve seen major, major businesses not even have their revenue tied to their web metrics, right? They have a traffic source that is pushing through a certain amount of traffic, and then they make revenue off of that traffic, but then they don’t correlate the two.
So I think the … People don’t focus on, or maybe don’t know how to focus on their data clarity as much as they should. I think that one of the biggest things I’ve seen here is that there is a lot more clarity in the data to be able to make some really informed decisions. Kind of like that mental tenacity, or maybe kind of like being able to abstractly think about what it is that’s driving your decisions, has been one of the strengths. That’s part of the secret sauce.
Logan: To that end, we implemented a BI tool to help us look at all that, which is very, very exciting.
Carman: Do you mind my asking which tool you’ve implemented?
Logan: Yeah, we went with Domo. We looked at a few different tools. In all honestly, Domo seemed like the right fit for us, but there is many tools out there that do a lot of the same things. I think just getting your data consolidated into one place is what’s important, whether it’s Domo, Grow, Sisense…
Chris: Yeah, Salesforce’s solution…
Logan: Yeah, Microsoft BI, stuff like that, yeah. Doesn’t really matter, as long as you can get it there.
Chris: Yeah. It’s kind of whatever your tech stack is most comfortable with. We use certain things here that tie in with Domo very well, so it’s only natural that we’d implement that.
Logan: Yeah, exactly.
Jeff: We can have a whole other discussion on how we choose tech stacks and eComm platforms.
Chris: Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, in a lot of people, it’s a generative, additive process, right? I mean, they start with something, whatever it is, they start with something and they learn it, they get attached to it, all of their data is in it, they’ve already invested a bunch of man hours setting it up and getting everything in there. Then, you know, some companies just kind of ride that out, and become hamstringed by it, or they find success in it, or whatever it is. But I think … I guess honestly, at the end of the day, how your tech stack is working for you is really going to kind of figure how that plays out, because if you have the wrong one, it’s going to cause more frustration than it’s worth, or lost man hours, more passive expenses and whatnot. So pivoting as quickly as you can, kind of cutting bait and moving onto something that does work, I think, is my best advice when it comes to tech stacks.
Carman: As you reference moving on, I can’t help but think that we’re actively moving onto 2019, provided we’re all fortunate enough to make it the next two months.
Jeff: That’s a little grim!
Carman: Hey man, you’ve seen the news as much as I have.
Carman: But nevertheless, as we … I guess, as we wrap up this podcast and 2018, I guess, a couple of parting thoughts from the both of you, with respect to what 2019 might hold. Dig out your crystal ball for a moment, set it beside the clear bags, potentially, and what do you see that’s going to be an important focus as 2019 gets underway?
Chris: Yeah. I’ll start with the marketing aspect of it and Logan can talk more to the business aspect of it. In marketing, I hope to be focusing on getting our marketing plans de-siloed and a bit more integrated with each other. Say we go to a trade show, and we get a bunch of customers there, and typically what most companies do is they’ll take those leads, and they’ll put them into their CRM, and they’ll follow up on them, and send them samples, or whatever they promised at the trade show. Then they’ll just kind of traditionally market to those people, directly. They’ll do a lot of direct marketing, a lot of phone calling, a lot of emailing, stuff like that.
I would like us to get to a level of not only doing that, but then creating a segment in social to where then these people, or lookalikes of them are now getting served ads across all those platforms, you know, we have an email campaign going on, maybe we have a direct mailer kind of like follow those areas around. The way you do this is you kind of need third party data to kind of mine some of what’s going on there, you need, obviously, the platforms to be able to get to it. But essentially, what it comes down to is personalizing the marketing a lot more so it becomes more relevant, because what I see is that people always want to talk about how they don’t want to be advertised to, but I think really at the root of that, let’s just say advertising is never going to go away, right?
I mean, we can kind of, I think, all agree on that. What they’re really saying is that they don’t want irrelevant advertisements. Everyone always wants to know about new products that they can use, people always want to know about stuff that makes their lives easier, better, what have you. So what we’re trying to do, and I think one of our focuses for 2019 is to make sure that the right customers get the right message at the right time. So that way, there is no bad taste in people’s mouths over our messaging.
Carman: Yeah, I agree with Chris. People actually don’t mind being sold to, they mind being sold to poorly.
Logan: Well said, that’s right. I’m actually going to 100% agree with Chris. That’s why I brought up that idea of conversational marketing earlier, using the Drift platform. There’s a few platforms out there that kind of do the same thing. But that’s an example. I’m excited about that, because it’s one example of what Chris is talking about. So we go to a trade show, and we get these leads, and so not only are we launching an email campaign to them, but it’s targeted advertising. We’re even looking at geofence advertising to very specific cities, or the actual businesses, that we met at the show, and then …
So we’re doing the advertising there. But we also, on this conversational marketing platform, when they come to our site, the site recognizes who they are, and says, hey, it’s nice seeing you at the show. If you’d like to schedule time with one of the people that you met there, click here, and it auto schedules a calendar appointment with a bot for them, follows up, reminds them. So it is what Chris says, it’s marketing to them very well, and making sure that it’s integrated between trade shows, sales, digital advertising, Amazon, and really making a unified experience for the customers. The other big focus, for me, for 2019 is diversification a little bit. Think about your investment portfolio and how you’ve got to be diversified to lower your risk.
Well, the same thing is true for your business from a marketing standpoint. What channels are you over-invested in? What traffic sources for your website are you over-invested in? For us, well, we’re not looking at reducing those investments, we’re looking at can we add more into some of these other channels to diversify our mix a little bit? There has been some political things that have happened that we won’t get into that just … That make you nervous about what’s going to happen with the economy, with your business. It just made me, as a marketing director, say, okay, well, are we … Is our marketing mix right? Is our advertising spend right? Is our traffic to our site right? Just kind of going back to that core marketing and adjusting the mix to make sure that we’re preparing for the future.
Carman: Gentlemen, I think this is a fantastic insight into the work that you’re doing, the success that you’ve had to date, and some great advice as we look ahead. I want to thank you for sharing it with us, and thank you for your time today. It’s been great chatting.
Logan: So what was the take? Two people okay? One person better?
Carman: To be fair, as we conclude this podcast, it may not have reduced the quality having four men speaking. But it has certainly increased the time it takes to do a podcast. This will be our longest yet, I would suggest. So I’ll let others draw the conclusion as to what that means.
Logan: Sounds great.
Carman: Well thanks so much, gentlemen.
Jeff: Thank you very much.
Logan: Yeah, thank you, guys, appreciate it.
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