Manufacturers Need to Integrate Digital Marketing Strategies to GrowManufacturers Need to Integrate Digital Marketing Strategies to Grow

Manufacturers Need to Integrate Digital Marketing Strategies to Grow Transcript:

Announcer: You’re listening to The Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White. 

Jeff White: Welcome to The Kula Ring, a podcast for manufacturing marketers brought to you by Kula Partners. My name is Jeff White and joining me today is Carman Pirie. Carman, how you doing, sir? 

Carman Pirie:  I am running on a gallon and a half of espresso, Jeff. That’s what’s… That’s how I’m doing. 

Jeff White: This is what happens when we have a whole bunch of sales calls early in the day. 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah, or something. I don’t know. I mean, yeah, it’s just been an interesting day, and it’s just been one of those throw the caffeine in, so I don’t know whether that means I’m gonna be really groggy and not able to keep up with today’s guest at all, or if I’m gonna be just jittery and all over the map, so I don’t know. We’ll see. 

Jeff White: Could go either way. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. 

Jeff White: Could go either way. 

Carman Pirie: But the good news is we have a really good guest today. 

Jeff White: We do. 

Carman Pirie: Which means that even if we suck, the show is still gonna be good. 

Brian Baker: That’s a lot of pressure. 

Jeff White: Yeah. No, we’re asking you to carry it, sir. As it turns out-

Carman Pirie: You now have The Kula Ring upon your shoulders. The burden is heavy. 

Jeff White: I didn’t know we were gonna give it away, but here we are. So, joining us today is Brian Baker. Brian is the founder at DoDecaHedron Design and a very experienced manufacturing marketer. Welcome to The Kula Ring, Brian. 

Brian Baker: Hey, guys. It’s really good to talk to you. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. It’s awesome to have you on the show, mate. Look, let’s just jump right into it and maybe give our listeners a bit of background. Give them the elevator pitch. Who’s Brian, anyway? 

Brian Baker: So, I’ve been doing sort of digital and web stuff since the mid-1990s, which used to seem like the future. Now it’s a long, long time ago. 

Carman Pirie: Future ain’t what it used to be, my friend. 

Brian Baker: But I got involved in the really early days of the internet. I was going to actually art school in Columbus, Ohio, and CompuServe happened to be based there. I was trying to go learn computer animation and illustration and it was really hard to get my hands on those digital tools. First, the computer that could actually do that in those days, and then the software was so expensive, and so I was asking around, where can I find these things? I kept running into all these internet people and I was like, “Well, what is the internet? Show me what that is and what does that mean.” And I was like, “Wow, that looks like it’s gonna be pretty important.” Kind of progressively took over my life. 

Carman Pirie: You and Al Gore were early on this. 

Brian Baker: Yeah, so I did a lot of fun things early on. I had my own agency for a few years and worked with a lot of earlier dot com companies. Did some work with Travelocity, did some other work in the wider travel industry, and anyway, long story short, I found myself in the building materials industry a few years later. I actually started to work with a roofing company called Elk Corporation, which is a roofing shingle manufacturer that GAF purchased in around 2006 or 2007ish. I probably have the year wrong. And I actually moved from Dallas up to New Jersey. I was like only two people that went that direction. Everybody else wanted to get out of New Jersey and go to someplace a little bit warmer and nicer. 

But you know, when I landed there, they were in a really interesting spot. I think somebody there told me digital doesn’t matter, right? We always get our share no matter what we do. And you know, the lights hadn’t really gone on there in terms of the fact that you know, you’ve been selling through the channel for so many years, you’ve got these relationships with distributors, and with contractors, and those are important and valuable, but now you as a brand can reach consumers directly. They’re actually looking for your products. I remember a time when I had to go in and make a case to senior leadership like, “Look, here’s all the search volume for people looking for these shingles, and shingle colors, and shingle products, so it’s like we really need to make this investment because you can see all this demand coming in.” 

And so, we really built out most of GAF’s digital program from scratch in almost every direction. So, through social media, through lead generation programs, to digital media, to just a number of other tools and things that they provide to their contractors, but one of the most valuable, interesting things we did, and it was actually… You know, there were some folks that were there that were pretty smart, right? 20 years there before my time, they figured out that they needed to go out and build a Certified Contractor program because the reputation in the roofing industry was… I think it was like out of all the BBB complaints, they were like number three or something like that. And so, they wanted to really improve the reputation of the industry, so they reached out to all the folks, they built these training programs, they built a lot of programs to help these folks grow and develop their business, and in that regard, they were really far ahead of a number of other folks in the industry. I mean, even today, I still see folks where that lightbulb is just going on how to do that. 

But we took that kind of program because they already had it culturally, they were already aligned around how we support this network, and we really made that into an online experience, right? 

Carman Pirie: I just want to connect the dots for the listeners because that was what really excited us about bringing you on the show today, is that this notion that there are an awful lot of marketers out there that struggle with how do they go to market — whether it’s a dealer network, or an installer base, or some sort of local presence, and how do we grow the market, grow demand for our products, and do so in a way that kind of lifts that kind of local network along with it? So, I think it’s really the lessons that are to come here that can really broadly apply to so many of those types of categories. 

Brian Baker: Yeah. They really do. This kind of model applies to anywhere where you’re dealing with a network of service providers, or network of installers, or network of distributors, or dealers, and you really can see this sort of similar model working in the health industry, working in manufacturing industries, so folks like Honeywell and people like that that have a wide network of distribution, dealers, parts, service, and self-installation centers. 

You know, there’s a lot of manufacturers I think today, they’re trying to figure out, “Well, how do we sell direct online?” And everybody’s kind of scared because they’re like, “We’re gonna disrupt the channel,” right? Everything is gonna… There’s gonna be this big apocalypse that happens if we go do that. And I think there’s really a better answer here, right? You don’t have to completely displace the existing channel, but you can actually sort of line these things up digitally so that they’re all working together. So, in the case of GAF, it was homeowners generally when they start out, they don’t know roofing brands. And for a lot of building materials manufacturers, that’s gonna be the case, because so few of them really make the investment in this kind of mass awareness because it’s cost-prohibitive, right? It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for them to do that. 

But people would start out searching for a roofing contractor in their locale, so we could see that in the data, and we built this sort of network to intercept those people and preferentially connect them to our network of installers, right? Our certified contractors. And so, there we weren’t really trying to displace them or to displace what was there, it’s like how do we actually reinforce our channel? How do we make them stronger? How do we make those links and relationships so much stronger between our brand and the contractors? 

And it was really incredible in terms of driving loyalty, right? So, now I’m not just pushing these guys to sell my product. I, as a manufacturer, can actually drive business into that network that I can measure, and that I can monitor, and it’s also I’m not really trying to displace distribution there either. Even if you were to ultimately progress to, which GAF didn’t do this, but ultimately that could progress into almost like a local marketplace, where we’re gonna put forward these service providers, they’re gonna be able to scope prices for typically sized jobs or something like that, and facilitate that purchase, but it’s still you’re not displacing the channel, right? It’s the installer is still going to go in and make their margin, distribution is still gonna fulfill delivery for them, and the manufacturer, even though they could go direct, they don’t have to deal with building out a whole distribution network, which is the piece they’re missing when they want to go direct. 

Carman Pirie: So, digitally, what did this look like? Are we talking about a kind of like a search optimized kind of installer finder, something of that nature that’s designed to capture kind of end-user searches?

Brian Baker: Yeah, so there’s a network of about 45,000 or so locally optimized search pages. It’s sort of driven dynamically and it intercepts all these, so they look for Dallas roofing contractors, or Parsippany, which is this town that I’m in, roofing contractors, you’ll find those listings for GAF’s network, and the idea there is again, property owners are starting out by looking for professionals, so we want to get our brand in front of them as soon as possible so that it looks like, “Oh, this is the brand that we want to go with. This is the one that everybody uses.” 

And even beyond that, that network formed the basis of a backlink network to all these individual contractor websites. We went through a period in about 2008, we had a kind of a big economic event there that some folks might remember, and so everybody was looking to us for what can we do to help generate and drive leads to these businesses was one challenge, but the other challenge was they couldn’t really participate effectively in digital because they didn’t have the knowledge or the ability to get their websites ranked in search. And frankly, there were a lot of competing entities there trying to box them out, so it was like Service Magic, which is now Home Advisor, they had gone and registered everybody’s business name, and made pages for them whether they had a relationship with them or not, and it wasn’t just them. It was a whole bunch of different kinds of people that went into that lead generation game that boxed these local businesses out. 

So, they were asking us if we could do anything about this, and so we figured out that we could create leverage to their… not only to create visibility for our directory, but also for their individual websites. So, we had this network effect that really helped folks, really helped us stack the deck a little bit. So, if a consumer is searching for a roofing contractor in a given locale, yes, they’ll see GAF’s nice listing. Then there’ll be three, or four, or five contractor websites underneath that, but what the consumer may not see, but which we knew is those were all more of our friendly guys that we had sort of stacked the deck with. So, it’s really creating more and more opportunities for us to sell. 

And it also supported those businesses not just in the dimension of roofing or GAF, but some of them have other businesses, so it helped them a little bit more broadly and that was also very powerful. 

Jeff White: I really like this understanding that you had very early on that getting our brand that typically deals directly with installers known to the end customer isn’t really a game that’s worth playing, and that instead, we’d be much better off kind of going to where the interest is in the purchase, and going through those installers, because I think so often organizations, especially manufacturers, there can be a bit of ego in the way there where they want to own their brand in some way, shape, or form, even though they’re potentially being represented by others and installers and things like that. But you know, there’s a lot of power in recognizing that, hey, this is where the interest comes from, and this is what we should tap into, and leverage, and elevate even more. I think that’s really brilliant. 

Brian Baker: Yeah. I appreciate that. You know, I talked to a number of building materials businesses today that its sort of strange. It’s like somebody signed up a whole bunch of dealer networks or somebody 20 or 30 years ago and they don’t really do anything for them. They’re all just these kinds of… They don’t know what happens on the other ends, right? They’re not really awake and doing anything. And this is really such a great vehicle for them to activate that network, right? I mean, there’s only so much you can do as a manufacturer. There’s only so much search volume, right? You’ve gotta get the network working for you. You’ve gotta get people to build businesses around what you’re doing to really multiply your effect, both by your advertising dollars, multiply the number of word-of-mouth opportunities, and I think that as time progresses here, building materials, they always surprise me a little bit. They move slower than you think they will. 

So, like when somebody moves into this space or does something successfully, you always think, “Oh my gosh, everyone’s gonna copy us. Everyone’s gonna copy us.” But they don’t, right? Because the lightbulb isn’t fully switched on yet. But I think if you look at bringing that network forward and evolving your website, your manufacturing website, into a marketplace that doesn’t displace your existing channel, I think that’s a really solid path forward and really probably the safest way forward from an eCommerce standpoint as folks kind of venture into it. 

Carman Pirie: I want to unpack this a little bit further. I’m curious, did you see an impact in terms of an ability to attract new installers? Did it become understood in the installer community as an example that you folks had a bit of an edge, that there was something at play here, and therefore it helped you add to your installer base? Just curious. 

Brian Baker: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s a plus, so especially as you move into, excuse me… Some markets were more mature and there were a lot of partners there, so if somebody new comes in, the benefit would be a little bit diminished. But in new markets that we wanted to develop, and it’s like you can hydrate that company with business and with leads right out of the gate, yeah, that is very powerful. And it’s also just from an attachment standpoint, to keep people loyal over a long period of time to your brand, and it’s not actually just the business that you’re driving there. You’re really creating this loyalty effect. 

So, it’s like, “Oh, if they’re used to getting leads from you and selling your product, that’s actually what they’re gonna do more often when you’re not involved.” And so, that attachment, that multiplier effect was really pronounced. But going through 2008, it was the fact that we kind of did this going through the economic downturn, and a lot of these guys were… Business was not good for them. I mean, they were so appreciative. It’s like everybody clapped for you and they were gonna build a statue of you, and that felt really good because you really genuinely did something to help these businesses through a hard time. 

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Carman Pirie: I’d be curious about your work in the building materials space more broadly even, how have you found this strategy differs when you’re dealing maybe with something that’s a product, say an SKU that’s maybe a less significant part of that installer’s business? So, you know, when you’re roofing, when you’re providing roofing to a roofing contractor, roofing’s a pretty big part of the job. If you were a nail supplier to that… I don’t know. I’m making it up now because I can tell you it’s been a long time since I’ve hit a shingle nail. But you know, there are other parts of that, I guess components that that installer depends upon, that they may be somewhat less attached to if you will. A less significant SKU in their world. How does the strategy change or evolve when that dynamic is at play?

Brian Baker: Well, you still want to promote the individual locations where people can purchase your product and you want to make a good experience there, so that could look like when I take you to a dealer or a locator on my website, am I just giving you a list of here’s just a bunch of text listings and you don’t really know anything about where you’re going, and I don’t really know about where I sent you or what happened? Or can I track that through to where I sent you, did I relay you to an eCommerce experience of a partner or a dealer, an individual dealer has? Did I relay you to a specific person that you need to make contact with there? Do I have that person’s picture and information on my website, so you know who you’re gonna talk to? Those are some things I would think about in that case.

It does get a bit harder when you’re starting to deal with it… We talk about nails, right? So, that’s a commodity product that has high availability, so it’s maybe not the best solution in the case of that, other than just meeting some basic needs of where do I go buy this. It’s really in the category of I’m gonna buy a certain piece of material and somebody has to install it for me, right? There’s a service component to this is really where it’s gonna score you the most points, I think. 

Carman Pirie: I’m trying to think about certain categories. For instance, if you’re one smaller part of a bigger unit, maybe the search volume that you begin to buy and direct towards an installer base is bigger than exactly what you sell if you will. 

Jeff White: Yeah, potentially. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. I’m going down a rabbit hole now. I’m thinking of a couple of specific examples in my past and just trying to think it through a little bit, but it doesn’t… I’m unsure of its broad applicability to the audience, so I’m happy to stop this line of questioning, Jeff. 

Jeff White: I do think, though, that there’s the other component. You mentioned just how thankful the installers were for the leads and for the partnership that I’m sure they felt they had with GAF, but I mean on the other side too, it provides an incredibly powerful tool to the manufacturer to know who their leading installers are, or who their leading distributors are, to be able to see who’s following up on these leads, what are they doing with them, are they converting them into a sale. The power of digital to be able to understand the performance of your installer network or dealer network is massive. 

Brian Baker: Once you kind of put this instrument out there and you can see the sort of search activity, user activity, and all these various locales, the data coming off of that, it’s like red meat to your territory managers or your sales force. They’re gonna… They’ll take that and go, “Wow, I’m really sending this guy a lot of business. I didn’t even realize that.” And they can use that to twist arms. Why aren’t you closing for me? What’s going on here? What can we do to improve this? But also, just to take that data and to go back and just demonstrate proof of value to these individual installers. Look what we did for you, right? Normally, you’re spending $10,000 a month at Home Advisor, but look what we as a manufacturer provide to you, and they’re much more qualified leads because we’ve already moved them through an experience and convinced them to buy this and funneled them down. 

And actually, that was something else that was true with us, is the leads and lines of inquiry that would come through our manufacturing website were so much more valuable to them than if you pay Home Advisor, right? Because the homeowner had already self-selected into a product. We’d already as a brand endorsed that installer as here’s somebody that we trust and that we know is gonna do a good job for you. 

Carman Pirie: I’d be curious if you expanded this beyond search towards more kind of demand gen, or paid social, or have you found that this kind of… I guess how have you scaled this program? 

Brian Baker: Well, that program sort of scaled all the way up to cover most of the United States and Canada, with a fairly sizable installer network of about 3,000 folks. If you were going to think about this in social media, that actually is finding, connecting, and building that network in social media, so this is… There’s some different objectives there, right? Really social media, think of that as your brand voice. We were also really early in the game there, too. We built a social network of about 300,000 professionals in the roofing community. The first insight is a lot of our competitors were trying to appeal to homeowners to get likes and things, but the challenge for us in roofing is a homeowner is gonna buy a roof once every 30 years, so they have this transient interest in us, so it’s like, “Well, actually who do we need to talk to on a regular basis? Who has a need to be continuously connected to us?” And so, we carefully, through experimentation over a long period of time, found a method to kind of systematically pull out who were the roofing contractors and who were the roofing professionals from Facebook and get them connected to us. 

And it was actually really powerful because we were the first roofing manufacturer that we could actually communicate our agenda directly to the market. We could say, “Hey, here’s what we’re doing, and here’s how we did,” and we could say it, and everybody would hear us. The trade press was there, but it only had a limited amount of circulation. 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people. And a lot of those numbers are pumped up, right? That’s maybe how many magazines they printed, but then they’re sitting in piles. Does anybody pick them up? Does anybody read them? 

Carman Pirie: Do you mean to tell me that every copy isn’t read an average of 10 times? I love that sales pitch. 

Jeff White: I’ve been lied to. 

Carman Pirie: Exactly. 

Brian Baker: Yeah, so it’s a little tough, but you also don’t get any feedback from that. You know, you can get placements in those magazines, but it doesn’t really have the feedback mechanism that social media does, so in social media, I could put out a message and the audience would tell me. Is this good? Is this bad? Or they’d find all the products with what we’re trying to do in about 15 minutes. So, that was actually really helpful too for us. 

But beyond that, we put together just a way where we could sort of see what all these folks that were connected to us were talking about on a regular basis. There’s these sort of social media listening tools where you can… Okay, I’m gonna put in my brand name and see if anybody’s mentioning me. But we had a much broader view. It was actually, “Let’s see everything that’s going on,” because guess what? Everybody’s not talking about me every day. They’re talking about other stuff. And we were able to take a look at those broad interests and in the roofing contractor space, it was community, family, military. What were their core values? And we were really able to put together content campaigns that aligned to those core values with our brand as a secondary passenger in some of these things, and they resonated really, really well with that audience. 

So, you collect all these folks together and you’d listen to… I know this is weird, but listen to what they’re saying, and listen to what they’re interested in, and it can really lead you in some really amazing and interesting directions in terms of how you market and how you communicate because you’re not just thinking about yourself. At that point, you’re trying to think about what’s really going to connect to these people. 

Carman Pirie: Some interesting insight there. I was going to ask if there was any kind of secret sauce if you were into the development of that roofing community and then of course you gave me some, so that was…obviously, using the social media listening tool can help you identify topics that you think are more likely to resonate, et cetera, better hone your content, but of course, it can also help you identify who the people are in the first place that even ought to be a part of that community. 

Brian Baker: Yeah. That actually was another great effect that we had. So, as we sort of pulled people in, and people started participating, we could actually see again very early on who were going to be the… probably the future superstars in social media, at least as far as… at least as big as they become in that industry. And we found a lot of really great opportunities early on because we would sort of see all the interesting things first and we’d pull them into the company, so like we got involved early on with… There was a guy doing a program called No Roof Left Behind, and it was like a charity for if you had elderly people in the community who couldn’t afford to fix or replace their roof, they would go in and do this, and it was kind of a PR hybrid charity thing, so we pulled them in and that was really successful. 

And just a lot of interesting people that you would see, and kind of seeing how the social media space has evolved overall has been interesting. There’s a guy, Dmitry Lipinskiy, who runs this really interesting channel called Roofing Insights. He’s probably the most YouTuber-like of the folks in the industry, but he’s doing well. He’s got about 50,000 or so folks following him. He’s always got something interesting going on. 

Carman Pirie: I think this is really critical for marketers to be listening to because of some of the B2C marketers out there, a lot of those competitive spaces, you can’t… You know, some of these tricks aren’t really available to you anymore, right? 

Jeff White: It kind of makes me pine for the social media days of old. 

Carman Pirie: But these tricks are available to conservative state industries, which so many manufacturers find themselves in, a competitive set that isn’t particularly progressive, and there’s an excellent opportunity to take some of this advice and really leapfrog here. It’s not always about the new shiniest tool in the box, that’s for sure. 

Jeff White: No, it’s about looking at how you use those tools and how you construct the data and what you do with it from there rather than just… Because it would be very easy like you were saying. Oh, who liked GAF? Or mentioned us when they put up a photo of their roof or whatever? But it’s the same kind of thing as if you buy a mattress on Amazon, or from Endy, or whatever, and all of a sudden you’re now getting all kinds of remarketing to buy another mattress. It’s like this isn’t a thing I’m going to buy immediately after I just bought one. Understand the context. You can’t just use retargeting for this every time. 

So, I think it’s pretty interesting to look beyond the basic metrics and look for the real value in that data. The real insight. 

Brian Baker: Yeah. I would say there’s still really a big opportunity across building materials for people. If you’re in a particular product category and you look around and nobody’s kind of the voice of your industry, with social media you can become that in a hurry. There’s nothing really holding like you mentioned nails earlier. I don’t know that category super well, or fasteners super well, but if you become the guy that becomes the fastener expert, there’s a following for that. There’s always… People are always looking for expertise, you know? 

Jeff White: Yeah, for sure. I mean, on that front, we did have National Nail on this show about two years ago, but that was less about the nails themselves and more about the machines they built for applying them. 

Carman Pirie: Right. 

Jeff White: But still-

Carman Pirie: I gotta say, Jeff, you have a great memory for past episodes of this show. It’s much better than mine. I wonder why that is. 

Jeff White: Brian, what are you excited about next? What are you working towards now? 

Brian Baker: Well, believe it or not, the topic that you asked me to chat about today is something I’m working on, so it’s like how do we actually take and create capability for manufacturers that they could sort of install as sort of a “do it for me,” right? Round up my guys, get them in there, and activate this channel for my service. And I’m also helping a really neat roofing manufacturer out of Iowa that makes… They make these synthetic roofing shingles and just the products just look unbelievably amazing. They take this recycled plastic, and they pressure mold it with these pigments, and they’ve got these dyes that are cast from wood originally, and it just produces just this gorgeous product. I mean, they’re like all the way at the top end of roofing. 

So, we’re taking a look at how we get them adopted a little more widely. But that’s kind of it. I guess looking further into the future, if you want to talk about more broad digital trends and things like that, I’m really excited about how this sort of augmented reality space may evolve for building materials. So, you kind of have your phone, you can kind of do it now, but I think there’s a… The rumor mill keeps saying that Apple is working on these augmented reality glasses that they’re gonna come out with, and just what that will do for product visualization and installation help and support I think it’s gonna be really, really amazing. 

Because all of a sudden, if you could put these glasses on and this three-dimensional overlay would come on that’s intelligent enough to understand your environment and show you where to put all the pieces, now there’s a much wider audience that can adopt and use my product without any support, so that opens up a whole nother set of really interesting opportunities. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. It’s felt like a technology that has been-

Jeff White: In search of a point for a long time. But it really does feel like it’s time. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. And you know that there are some of these applications that make a lot, a lot of sense, right? Yeah. It does feel like we’re a bit on the cusp of it. 

Jeff White: For sure. Yeah. It’s kind of like, all right,  there’s VR, but now AR needs to work. And I think it can. It’s like, “Hey, if the QR code can finally become a real thing thanks to vaccine passports, maybe it’s time for…”

Carman Pirie: Anybody can make a comeback if the QR code can make a comeback. 

Jeff White: Yeah. Exactly. 

Brian Baker: Actually, speaking about that, I had a really great experience not that long ago. I got one of these Apple credit cards. It doesn’t have a QR code on it, thankfully, but it comes in this neat little package, and it says, “Oh, touch your phone here,” and then you touch your phone to the package, and it pulls up the thing and starts you through the process. It was a really fun experience and I think this idea that you could just take and touch your phone to something, and it pulls up the installation instructions, or whatever that you might need, I think that’s also… It can be pretty cool. 

Jeff White: Yeah. The contextual use of technology for this kind of thing, just… There’s a lot of times when they try to apply artificial intelligence to things and it really feels forced, and then every once in a while you’re like, “Okay, I’m setting up something new, so let’s share the Wi-Fi password between devices or something.” Those kinds of interactions that provide real moments of delight are few and far between and they could be even more substantial and frequent one would think. But yeah. 

Carman Pirie: Well, I thank you so much for joining us on the show today and bringing your expertise. It’s been a real pleasure to have this conversation and I know I’ve really enjoyed it. I’ve really enjoyed the insight and I look forward to seeing a new leader in really amazing roofing coming out of Iowa soon now that you’re working with them. 

Brian Baker: Yeah. Thank you, guys. I really enjoyed chatting with you guys. I could talk to you guys all day, to be honest. 

Jeff White: We’ll have to have you back on the show after you’ve helped launch this product. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. Exactly right. 

Jeff White: All right. Cheers. 

Carman Pirie: All the best. 

Brian Baker: All right. Well, thank you, guys. 

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