Musings on Design, UX, User Testing, and Visitor AnalysisMusings on Design, UX, User Testing, and Visitor Analysis

Musings on Design, UX, User Testing, and Visitor Analysis Transcript:

Announcer: You’re listening to The Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White. 

Jeff White: Welcome to The Kula Ring, a podcast for manufacturing marketers brought to you by Kula Partners. My name is Jeff White and joining me today is Carman Pirie. Carman, how are you doing?

Carman Pirie:  I’m delighted to be here. 

Jeff White: Fantastic. 

Carman Pirie:  You know, what else would you rather be doing on a warm, gorgeous summer day than recording a podcast, Jeff? 

Jeff White: Well, you know, I enjoy both of those things, and sometimes separately. 

Carman Pirie:  And today it’s together. Look, today’s show is gonna be a fun ride, I think, because two things. Number one is we’re introducing our listeners to Kula’s Creative Director, and I love the opportunity to bring some of our own talent to the show. It’s been a really fun experience. And then secondly, I guess, what I love about today’s topic is we’re all, everybody in marketing, we’re all building for an audience. We’re all creating for a user. And man, they’re hard to pin down. 

Jeff White: And it’s hard to know what is an opinion and what is actually able to be backed up? 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah. What is a fact when it comes to UX?

Jeff White: Yeah. Is there a fact? 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah. So, I’m looking forward to today’s chat and I hope that listeners will get some value out of it and enjoy the ride as we chat about all the nuances and pitfalls of UX and as well, kind of the notion of nothing surviving contact with the user. So, without further ado, let’s introduce today’s guest. 

Jeff White: Yeah, so joining us today is Craig Edis. As you mentioned, Craig is the Creative Director here at Kula Partners. Welcome to The Kula Ring, Craig. 

Craig Edis: Hello, guys. Feel under pressure now. You bigged it up to something really huge, so this better be good. I better be on point with my answers. 

Carman Pirie:  Well, you’ve been working on your British accent, so that’s nice. 

Craig Edis: Yeah, I know. I sound smarter, don’t I? I think I’ve got a terrible hybrid now with some words that I say. They’re a little bit too Canadian in certain ways, but yeah, I’m trying to hold onto my Britishness. 

Carman Pirie:  Well, we have to maybe send you back more frequently or something so you can-

Craig Edis: It’s been a while since I’ve been back. 

Carman Pirie:  A bit of a reup or something. 

Jeff White: It’s been a while since anybody’s been anywhere. 

Carman Pirie:  Exactly. Hopefully, that changes soon. 

Jeff White: Yeah. 

Carman Pirie:  Well, look, Craig, why don’t you give the listeners a bit of your background and just kind of tell us a little bit about you for those that don’t know you as well as Jeff and I do? 

Craig Edis: Sure. So, as you can probably tell, I am not from Canada originally. I grew up in the UK and moved over to Canada when I was nearly… Just before I was 28. So, I’ve been here for… Oh, man. 13 years. That’s scary. So, yeah, my education, my background, I did a diploma in graphic design, and then I went to university for three years, graduated with an honors degree in illustration and graphic design, and I’ve been working in the industry for 17, 18 years now, working for kind of a mixture of in-house design marketing teams, as well as for some really big marketing agencies, including Kula. I’ve done stuff around the world. 

I kind of started off as very much a print designer when I first got started, and over the years, just really embraced the industry’s shift into more of an online presence, and now I’ve kind of… I hit that hybrid section and now I’ve probably crossed the line more into the digital. So, yeah, I’ve kind of tried to ride the wave as I go. 

Jeff White: I think that’s interesting too, and you know, this may not be obvious to anybody who isn’t necessarily used to working with designers, or a designer themselves, but it’s not common for people who are trained in more traditional graphic design to make the leap and truly want to get into the ever-changing waters of digital, is it? 

Craig Edis: It certainly seems to be a blocker for a lot of people. Jeff and Carman, as you know, like I teach at the university here, and just the amount of students that I talk to that are just… It’s like, “Oh, I want to be a print designer, and I want to work for an agency, and I just want to do logo design.” And it’s like, “It’s not that you have to…” To be successful in the design industry now, you have to be adaptable. You have to see opportunities that come up and kind of follow them even though they’re not necessarily what you thought would be your career path in the first place. It’s an interesting way to go, but it’s an important thing to keep there. Otherwise, you do miss out and yeah, the industry shift is like everyone’s on their phone 24/7 and everything’s turning to digital one way or another pretty much, so that those things need to be designed and considered, and knowing and… I think that’s probably, actually, that’s probably what puts a lot of designers off, is the amount of perceived rules around online and digital creation of design, is all of… You know, I’ve got to… It can’t do this. It can’t do that. It’s got to do this. 

And it’s like, but if you embrace the rules and you understand them, like anything in design, if you understand the rules, that you can start to bend them and manipulate them to get the most out of what you’re trying to accomplish, and you don’t see it as being held back in any way. You see it as opportunities to be innovative as the industry grows. And it’s growing at such a huge rate and new things are coming out all the time, it’s really great to see that progression and embrace those changes rather than just go, “I just want to do book design and a book is still a book.” 

Carman Pirie:  And follow the user. We just say this is all about users and we know where users are spending their time and where they’re consuming information, and-

Jeff White: It’s the place where you most interact with designed objects now, is online or within digital platforms. 

Carman Pirie:  So, if you want to concentrate on one medium only, then great, it’s called art. But we’re talking about design and communication, especially in the context of marketing. Well-

Jeff White: Yeah. And I think there’s an interesting kind of dichotomy to what you said, too, because you said, “You know, as a designer you have to embrace all these rules or understand that all these rules exist,” but you also on the other side of it, you have to embrace a lot of uncertainty. 

Craig Edis: Yes. 

Jeff White: Because you don’t necessarily know how somebody is going to interact with the thing you’re making. 

Craig Edis: Yeah. Everything that we design is a prototype, pretty much. It’s the first time that it’s been done in a lot of cases. Not in the larger sense of a website or something like that, but for the use case, who the user is, what are they gonna be doing, what do we want them to do with this, how do they feel about the product, what sort of interactions do we want to encourage, how do we want them to feel about the business, and the brand, and their experience, all those kinds of things is new almost every time. So, yeah, we draw from experience of doing this a lot and seeing things, but that experience is built from watching users interact with things. 

So, yeah, we create hypotheses of, “I think this will connect with that person in that way because it connected with this other group, demographic group, that’s reasonably similar. We asked them to do a reasonably similar thing.” So, bringing those things together should work. But yeah, you have to be ready to be surprised and you have to embrace being wrong, and it’s perfectly fine and it’s perfectly accepted. The ability to fail is so important in what we do. I know probably that the listeners don’t want to hear that, because it’s like we should succeed every time, but it is part of it, you know? We just try to mitigate the ability to fail based on knowledge and learning from the user. 

Carman Pirie:  I think this is a critical point because I think… And it’s a mistake, admittedly, that you see in some ways almost the more junior the marketer, the more frequently I find that you’ll see this mistake. This notion of just that there are… They feel I think in some way that part of their salary is going towards their aesthetic sensibility. Like they’re-

Jeff White: The tastemaker. 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah. Their aesthetic, they’re the ones that have been charged with saying whether or not something looks right. And this isn’t designers fighting the client-side marketers for creative control. It’s rather saying, “Hold on a second. There’s actually a user preference that we’re designing for here, and even given everything that we know, we also know that we need to be willing to be wrong.” And you’ve designed one site client-side in your career, and you think you’ve got it nailed 100%, you know? And I just… It’s an interesting thing, and I’ve worked on both sides of the divide, and I think it’s… If I had to say what separates in some way an experienced agency side designer from a client, it’s kind of… It’s in there. Yeah. 

Craig Edis: Yeah. It’s definitely… I’d say it’s one of the hardest things for marketers, designers, anyone kind of looking to review creative work, is you’ve got to separate yourself. This, you know, it’s like, “Yeah, you probably spawned it. You wrote the brief,” and things like that. But it’s not for you, you know? It’s for this person who’s on the outside. It’s for this person that we want to connect with. So, bringing in your own senses of taste and what you think is right is probably gonna lead it astray and make it not connect with the user, when obviously that’s the prime thing. I often find myself… I try to go into every conversation with a client as I’m the representative for the user who’s not there, like they can’t be there in the room, so I’m always trying to… I’m certainly there to listen to the client as far as what we’re trying to accomplish from the business point of view, what the objectives of this, how are we gonna make business sense out of this and make money from it and things like that, but I’m also in… I’ve split my brain into two, and the other half is like, “Okay, as the user, does this make sense to me?” 

You know, I think that’s one of the skills of the designer, is their ability to empathize and bring that side of pushing their own opinions, and feelings, and likes, and dislikes aside, and bringing in somebody else’s, and representing that for the client so that the client can almost faux bounce ideas off the user, even though they’re not there, and say, “Okay. Yeah, this makes sense.” 

So, yeah, it’s not necessarily for the marketer to say, “Oh, I like it. I don’t like it.” You know, it’s not really what design is, because design is there for a purpose. It’s there to do something. It’s… You know, the aesthetics of design is basically like a veneer. It makes it look nice at the end of the day. But what’s really important about design is all the structure and the mechanics behind it that make it do the thing that you want it to do. Anyone can make it look pretty. You know, any good designer, anything like that. But to make it do certain things in certain ways, push certain buttons with users, is… It’s a skill and it’s something that takes I think a lot of practice, and it’s something you will never, ever know 100%. You will always, always, always learn more. 

Carman Pirie:  I completely agree with this notion that even… The battle kind of renews daily in terms of keeping your… trying to keep your opinion and your aesthetic sensibility. I remember, Craig, once you told me that you just… You feel like you’ve had to have that conversation with yourself so much now that you just don’t have an opinion that’s based on taste. Like you find it very hard to say if you aesthetically think something’s attractive or not. 

Craig Edis: Yeah. People come up to me and go, “Oh, have you seen the new logo for such and such a brand?” And I’m like, “Yeah, yeah.” And they’re like, “What did you think of it?” And I’m like, “Well, it’s hard to answer, actually, because I haven’t seen the brief.” Like it looks nice, but without seeing the brief… Yeah. 

Carman Pirie:  And that’s when everybody who’s not a designer is saying, “Craig, can we talk about something else now?” 

Craig Edis: Yeah. And I’m like, “Well, see, I can look at it from two ways.” I can go, “Okay, aesthetically, it looks nice.” And then I can look at it from a structural point of view, you know, like technically is the typography good? Is the kerning there? Are the counters balanced nicely with the use of negative space and things like that? And then what the real point of it is, is does it do what it was in the brief? Because even if I don’t like it, it doesn’t matter as long as it does what the user needs, because yeah, if it’s something for 12-year-old girls, as I always say, 12-year-old girls who like unicorns, I’m not really that demographic. But I can use my knowledge and understanding of markets, and brands, and things like that, to go, “Okay, I know what I can do, how I can use color, and form, and everything else to make it appeal to that person.” 

So, yeah. It’s hard for me now to go back and go, “Yeah, no. I actually do just like that.” I can’t do it. It’s weird. I’ve been broken over the years. 

Jeff White: This idea, breaking a designer, like breaking a horse or something, you know? 

Craig Edis: Yeah. Maybe it’s a good thing. Maybe I’m in that right mindset now where I just need to stay as I have no personal opinion. I just do it based on the brief and the outcomes that we’re trying to get to. 

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Jeff White: You should get that on a t-shirt for whenever you present a design. I have no personal opinion. 

Jeff White: It would just help set the stage for the day’s event. I do think that’s interesting, though, and you know, that notion of not necessarily having an opinion, but certainly an informed understanding of the principles of design so that you can apply them to something, but even then, you can be surprised when you actually do see something in the context of an actual user trying to use something you’ve built. You know, when you go into usability testing for a site, or an application, or a calculator, or who knows what, and you sit down and you ask somebody to walk through something, what kinds of things have you seen that have made you… not reconsider your life choices, but you know, but made you go, “Oh, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it that way.” Tell us a bit about that. 

Craig Edis: So, there’s definitely ups and downs, and actually going through user testing at the moment, a lot spring to mind. But yeah, you can… It can go from absolute euphoria, seeing people… You come up with something, you’re like, “That’s really cool. That’s gonna allow them to do all these cool things.” And you know, they can get this task done really quickly. And then they do it and they see the potential of it and you’re like, “Yes. That’s awesome.” And you feel really good about yourself. 

Yeah. Other times you’re just screaming at them, going, “What on earth are you doing?” But then you’re like… You gotta take a step back and go, “Okay. No, you’re coming from this point of view. This is your experience. This is what you’re trying to accomplish. These are your outcomes that you want.” And seeing that can… Your initial reaction is probably frustration or disbelief in some cases, but you take a step back and you go, “Okay, where…” The finger has to come back to what is… You have to be able to ask those reflective questions. What is failing and why? And how do we fix it? 

I think that’s the kind of the core part of good feedback, is why is it wrong, how do I fix it, how do we make sure this doesn’t happen again? And yeah, seeing users use stuff, like we’ll see… We’ll set something up where it’s got… It could be a dashboard, or an interface of some kind, and you’ve got lots of buttons where people can do various tasks, and it’s designed to serve them however they want. And you know, we might be doing a user test. You know, it can ask people direct questions and see what they’re doing, which is great. They might mention something about, “Oh, it’d be great if this did this.” And I’m looking at the screen, I’m like, “It’s there. It’s literally right in front of you.” 

And I have seen users that are saying, “Oh, it’d be really great to have this functionality.” And their cursor is literally on top of the button that does that functionality. And you’re like, “Well, why don’t you see that? Why don’t you click on it? What is it?” And you’ve gotta take a step back and say, “Okay, well, there’s obviously a failing, like the functionality is there.” When I point it out to them, they’re like, “Oh, that’s great!” And they’re so happy. And then I have to ask them. It’s like, “Oh, why didn’t you see that? Why didn’t it stand out? Were you looking for something else? Was the language not right in the button? Was the button… Is it the visual of the button or is it the language of the button? Or is it the understanding of the context of the button?” 

So, you have to kind of take a step back and just think, “Okay. Well, one of those is failing.” So, that’s where you can ask the users, like, “Okay, is it the language?” Do they not understand that term? Is it too technical? Is it too simple? Is the size of the button getting overwhelmed by other elements in the design, so it’s becoming hidden? Is the color of the button, is the contrast and the accessibility of the button, is that failing and that’s why they can’t see it? 

So, yeah, you have to kind of go with it and just see, like I said, everything is a hypothesis to start off with, and then we user test it to find out if we’re right. And if we’re not right, that’s great, because we’re gonna make it better. And that’s why you have to embrace that. And if you were right, you get all the warm fuzzies inside that you were right. You can feel all smug for about 20 minutes. 

But yeah, you have to kind of ride the wave of what it is, and it’s not just from… You can’t fall into the trap of, “Oh, one user said that.” You have to see if many users say that sort of thing, because a website isn’t just for one person. Again, going back to the user as an entity and not just a solo player, like there’s lots of variables within that user entity, so you’ve got to take into consideration, “Okay, well, person A didn’t find the button, but people B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I had no problem with the button.” So, you’re like, “Okay,” and then that obviously leads you down the questioning route of for person A, it’s like, “Where were you struggling? What was it that you’re not getting that everyone else seemed to have gotten?” 

So, yeah, it’s a back and forth, trying to just understand the psychology of what is going on, and why is it going on, why are they not using? Or alternatively, really interestingly, how will they start to use things in ways you’d never imagined? Which is always great. I think that’s the sign of a good design, is when people can see potential in it. I always say that when I’m presenting to clients, I know that the design is going over well when clients, first of all, they feedback to me what I’ve done, and then secondly, they see the potential of what else it could be. You know, like whether it’s a piece of functionality, or how they can reutilize it in a different way than you hadn’t already intended and seeing that from a user is really great because then it’s a circular relationship with the user, where you’re throwing out a design hypothesis idea, they’re seeing it, getting another idea, and then feeding that idea back to you as a designer, and you go, “Oh. In that case, if you want to use it for this, I could introduce this functionality.” 

And they’re like, “Oh, that’s great!” And we just keep going round and round and round. Obviously, you can’t do that indefinitely, because we have timelines and budgets, but it’s a really exciting part of working with what is a complete variable at the beginning, probably, and you just kind of narrow it down, narrow it down, narrow it down into what is the perfect design that suits all the needs of that user for what they need that to do. 

Carman Pirie:  There’s a lot there, but the pieces that… 

Craig Edis: Sorry. 

Carman Pirie:  No, no, no. Not at all. It’s just like I have five things I want to say in response, but I guess the thing that really sticks out to me of a nuance in this work is that… how people are just really very unreliable witnesses to their own behavior. People are not, whether it’s in user testing, or in market research, if you ask somebody why they did something, there’s a very good chance they can’t tell you. Or that the answer that they tell you will not be the actual answer. It’s just simply their post-action rationalization of that behavior. 

Jeff White: Yeah. This is where I think user testing is really important. One of the things I think-

Carman Pirie:  But it’s a limitation of it too, isn’t it? 

Jeff White: It is-

Carman Pirie:  Or at least in combination maybe with visitor analysis? 

Jeff White: Well, but the one point that I would make, and I’ve seen Craig do this, is get confused by how somebody does something, or have them not be able to explain themselves or understand it, but then watch four more people make the same mistake. And then you start to see those patterns. Everybody adds a little bit of why I didn’t understand that or whatever. And that really… You know, I think that’s one of the fundamental truths of user testing, is that it’s not so much the individual comments. It’s being able to see the patterns, and how people use things, and that helps you do it. If you just rely on, like you say, on one person kind of describing the reason they think they didn’t understand it, you’re probably not going to be able to develop an alternative that is gonna work better. 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah. And it’s not about did five people explicitly request this exact functionality using these words. There’s a layer of interpretation for the person conducting the user testing that needs to be there. Yeah. 

Jeff White: Absolutely. But you don’t need 1,000 people to come to those conclusions, you know. 

Carman Pirie:  That’s a fair point. 

Jeff White: You can actually find repetition of behaviors within a very small subset of groups that gives you a good indication that will allow you to improve your design without being exhaustive on the testing side. 

Craig Edis: I was gonna say, it’s the interesting thing between the difference between user testing and presenting. If I present a design to you, I’m gonna point everything out, and I’m controlling the situation because I can control the delivery and you guys know why I do that. So, basically, I can influence how you feel about something because I’m part of the experience of experiencing that website, or system, or whatever it is. You know, so I can point out those things to you and you can go, “Oh no. I see how that works because you explained it to me.” 

But the beauty of user testing is you don’t tell them what you’re looking for and you don’t tell them… You know, you can even misdirect them as to what you want to test them on because you get such an honest answer in response because they don’t know if it’s a right or a wrong answer. It’s completely ambiguous to them as they’re going through it. They’re just gonna go through in a very natural and very honest way, whereas if I presented it to them and then they saw the presentation, and then they went through it, they’d be like, “Oh, I remember Craig showed me this does this. I want to try it out.” 

And it’s like, “Well, I’ve tainted the test in doing so, because you know that that’s there.” But if you can discover that it does that without me having to say anything, because I’m not there for every user, helping them get through every website and every system that we design. If they can figure out on their own how to do that, then that’s the win. That’s the ultimate way of doing this because what I’ve designed is totally independent of me or anybody else helping them, which is the way that every good design should be. 

Carman Pirie:  I want to ask both you and Jeff, I guess, because I mean the two designers in the room here, do you notice much of a difference around whether or not people know they’re being tested? I guess the difference between user testing and visitor analysis, looking at visitor recordings as people actually… real users engaging in the wild as opposed to bringing people into a user testing environment and asking them to conduct tasks. 

Craig Edis: I think you still taint them in that certain degree, because again, the lab rat knows that they’re in lab conditions trying to… Filming them out in the wild, you’re gonna get a more honest response. And I think you see that from the data that we see. I just popped into my head when we look at heatmaps and you see all these clicks in one position and you’re like, “What on earth were they trying to click on?” Like it’s in the middle of a paragraph or something like that. And you see like a real red heat zone, where like loads of people are doing it, and you just get people just randomly… Some people, and I watch it on a user test, they just like to click. It’s like, “I’m gonna click on that. I’m gonna click on this and see what it does. I’m just gonna click because it’s something to do while I’m reading.” 

Carman Pirie:  Drive the designer mad. 

Craig Edis: Well, it makes it harder to extract data, because you’re like, “Is there a broken link or something?” 

Jeff White: What did I miss? Oh, man. I think one of the points you made around user testing is, and you talked a bit about this around the accessibility of things, contrast issues and things like that, what is it… You get an opportunity to evaluate client brands, client sites, implement new editions to existing platforms that you may not have been the original designer for. What are the kinds of things that you see from an accessibility perspective that you think clients could just really be… marketers could really just be watching out for and learning from? 

Craig Edis: Yeah. I think it’s a huge part, and where… Obviously, everything that comes out of Kula, we stringently make sure that every user can enjoy the content and what we’re creating, so accessibility is a huge part of it. Not just like how they interact through keyboards and assistive technology, screen readers and stuff like that, but also how the site is presented and appears is a huge part of what I need to kind of… things I need to work around in a strategic kind of way. And a lot of it kind of spawns from the initial brand design. 

And again, going back to what we were saying right at the beginning, a lot of designers just kind of don’t want to embrace digital and just go the print route or whatever it might be. They’re not necessarily aware of accessibility rules around, especially contrast. Contrast is a huge thing. So, you know, like how one color overlaps another color, and that’s really just spawned and influences everything from the back brand initiation, so we get a lot of brands come through where they’ll have a core color palette or something like that, or even an extended color palette, and the first thing that I do every single time I get a set of brand guidelines or something like that is I run it through a color contrast checker. And what does is it gives me… Basically, it’s got nothing to do with like opinion of colors or anything like that. It’s purely data-driven. It’s you have to have a color ratio of a minimum of 4.5 to 1. It goes up… Basically, black and white is a 20-1, and that’s the max that you can get. So, it sounds like 4.5 to 1 isn’t… That should be easy to pass contrast. It’s surprisingly difficult to get a couple of colors laying over each other. 

So, it’s definitely something we come into issues with when we’re evolving brands into a digital space, or just evolving a brand online that’s already there, so there’s normally a  couple of routes that we do. Either strategically work out how we can use the colors that pass with each other, or I normally go and talk to the client, and I’m like, “Can we just tweak this yellow or something like that just to help it pass contrast and get it through?” We’re not messing with their brand. It still feels the same. But it just allows us a little bit more flexibility in the design and we know that everyone’s gonna be able to see it, and access it, and things like that. So, that’s a really big part of it and something we run into right from the get-go. 

Whenever I’m designing a brand for Kula, I always try to make sure I’m building the brand colors palette with accessibility in mind. I’m constantly checking it. So, I get away with a few more colors than we often inherit. 

Other things are typography, making sure that you’ve got a good hierarchy throughout your type. That’s just a general good design practice anyway. But also making sure that your font sizes are legible. We see that with a lot of designers like to have the really tiny, like 12-pixel font, which looks really lovely from a distance but can’t read it. 16 pixels for body copy is just fine. That’s great. 

So, things like that, making sure that everyone’s getting the same experience, so font choice again is a big thing. Again, we tend to inherit that from brands that already exist, so it might need some tweaking there to make sure that things present really nicely. And then basically what we’re looking at after that is just that everyone… We’re sort of setting it out so that users come through and can access the information in the right hierarchy, in the right order, and they have access to everything. CTAs are clear. CTAs have enough contrast to break you out of just kind of going through the rhythm of reading a page of information. We want to kind of snap you out of that and say, “Hey, pay attention to this bit and interact with this CTA.” 

So, again, the button needs to meet accessibility so there’s enough contrast there so we’re drawing your eye to it. So, it’s kind of a double win. You’re allowing all users to be able to access your content, but you’re also helping to draw them in the right way and thread them through your site as you need them to. 

Jeff White: I really like that. That’s a great, concise way of applying how you think about your brand guidelines and how that actually applies to bringing things to life in a digital way. 

Craig Edis: Yeah. 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah, and give people just some really practical ways of thinking about it as they’re maybe onboarding a digital agency or like you say, making the transition from maybe brand guidelines that were more destined for print originally or what have you. I think it’s just really helpful and instructive. Craig, thank you so much for-

Craig Edis: The normal giveaway is normally if they’ve got hexadecimal numbers next to their colors, you can tell if they considered online or not. 

Jeff White: Yes. If everything comes with CMYK values or Pantone spot colors, you know you’re in for it. 

Carman Pirie:  You’re doomed. 

Jeff White: Well, thanks again for joining us, Craig. It was fantastic to chat with you. 

Carman Pirie:  A pleasure. Absolutely. 

Craig Edis: Thanks a lot, guys. 

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