The Kula Ring podcast is essential listening for manufacturing marketers who want to grow their digital presence and compete online.
Sponsored by Kula Partners—an agency committed to helping leading B2B manufacturers craft digital experiences that transform how they engage buyers, serve customers, and outpace their competition—The Kula Ring podcast features conversations about marketing, sales, and technology with top manufacturing executives from across North America.
The Kula Ring podcast is co-hosted by Kula Partners principals, Carman Pirie and Jeff W. White, both of whom are frequently sought after for their digitally-focused B2B expertise. They regularly share their insights with audiences including conferences like B2B Online and HubSpot’s INBOUND, the Gardner Manufacturing Marketer blog, and other podcasts focused on B2B marketing and technology.
“You have to talk to engineers to get the right information,” says Sannah Vinding, the Executive Director of Product Development and Marketing at VCC, our latest guest on this week’s episode of The Kula Ring podcast. Sannah has a unique mix of skills with a background in mechanical engineering, and a passion for marketing, she shares her tips and advice on how to better engage and target engineers to get them looking at your products and service offerings online. This episode also dives into the impact the pandemic has had on the manufacturing industry. Learn from Sannah how she believes organisations can rethink their marketing strategy to pivot to this new way of working.
Refine Your Manufacturing Marketing Strategy to Better Target Engineers Transcript:
Announcer: You’re listening to The Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White.
Jeff White: Welcome to The Kula Ring, a podcast for manufacturing marketers brought to you by Kula Partners. My name is Jeff White and joining me today is Carman Pirie. Carman, how are you doing, sir?
Carman Pirie: I’m doing good. I’m doing well. You know, it’s as good as can be expected, really.
Jeff White: For someone of your vintage.
Carman Pirie: Indeed. Indeed. Yeah, I was actually… I was dealing with a trainer person this morning and said, “Any aches and pains?” I’m like, “You’re kidding me, right?”
Jeff White: They’re everywhere!
Carman Pirie: Yeah. No, like don’t even worry about those at this stage. You’re just like… We’re just adding new ones on top of old ones.
Jeff White: That’s right.
Carman Pirie: But you know, I can’t complain. It’s been good.
Jeff White: No, exactly.
Carman Pirie: And how are you?
Jeff White: I’m doing really well. Yeah.
Carman Pirie: I’m excited about today’s show.
Jeff White: Me too. Yeah. I think anytime we get to have a fellow podcast host on, as well-
Carman Pirie: Yeah. It puts a lot of pressure on our audio quality. We expect them to be better.
Jeff White: Yeah. No, and they generally are, so…
Carman Pirie: Exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, look. Let’s dive right in.
Jeff White: Indeed. So, joining us today is Sannah Vinding. Sannah is the Executive Director of Product Development and Marketing at VCC, and also, as we mentioned, the host of the podcast Mind The Innovation. Welcome to The Kula Ring.
Sannah Vinding: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. It’s awesome to have you on the show. I want to get into the meat of our conversation today and in some ways that kind of, I think, has a foot in both camps of what your day job is and what the podcast is, so I guess can you tell us a little bit about VCC and what you do there, and then I’d love to then transition a bit into what you’re doing at the podcast, Mind The Innovation.
Sannah Vinding: Sure. So, at VCC, I’m responsible for product development, new product development, and also marketing. It’s promoting all our electronic components which we manufacture in North America. So, that’s bringing it out to distribution through all the channels, making sure that we actually are reaching the engineers using our components, so that’s where it’s really good to have the product development and also the marketing side because it just goes together. A side note is that I actually am a mechanical engineer in my background. That’s how I started as an engineer, which I think is really helping in the position that I have.
So, bringing out new products and saying, “Okay, what are these engineers looking for?” I’m combining everything there. And on our website, and everywhere we communicate for VCC is how can we educate that engineer to make a much better design? And that’s everything. I want to make it easy for everyone. And also, for the consumer of that end product or end device, that it’s an excellent design, so that’s the whole… You know, bringing our components all the way to that consumer using it, but maybe not noticing that we actually delivered one of these components because it just works. It actually illuminates, communicates, to make an action for that consumer. And that can be in anything, right? It can be in your refrigerator at home. You open it up and you need to change that water filter. That little light shows you now that it’s red or orange. Orange will say, “You need to order.” Red is saying, “You’re too late now or you need to do it now.”
And you don’t think about it. It’s just how light’s communicating in your daily life. You don’t notice it. I’m a geek, so I notice every light. I take pictures of it. I think my family is like, “Oh my God, we’re on vacation and you can’t stop looking for this.” So, that’s how it’s combined. But it’s great.
Jeff White: It’s like me and typography. I drive my wife nuts sending her photos of signage with bad kerning.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: Because everybody cares about that.
Jeff White: I don’t want to lose a point that you made there about the combination of your role, both in your background as an engineer, but more the combination of somebody who’s creating products as well as helping to sell and market them is not as common a combination as you made it sound there. You made it sound like the most natural thing in the world, but-
Sannah Vinding: But it’s natural for me. Yeah. No, it’s not natural out there to see that kind of background, so that’s good, right? I’m unique. No, but also I… Just to put it into my podcast, called Mind The Innovation, I never stop learning. I get inspired by seeing either it’s a bad design and then saying, “I can improve that,” or I get inspired looking into different industries and saying, “Okay, if they market a product, or communicating how to go to market with this product, how can I use that in the industry where I am?” And I think in the manufacturing world, some of them are dinosaurs, and I hope you can see when you go to VCC’s website or you see what we’re promoting, we’re not dinosaurs. We are ahead of the game. We have a video on the website. We are using .GIF files. We have a lot of guides on the website, as well, educating the engineers on how to be better designers.
And in the end, again, as I said, I just want to keep educating and make anybody a better person. If you don’t know it, go here and you can actually learn it. So, on the podcast that I have, where I’m hosting, is having different experts on and asking them. Saying, “How did you succeed?” And also asking, “What could you have done differently if you looked at yourself 10 years ago?” And some of this advice, or some of these ways to execute what we talk about, can actually help you and me, so that’s why I have the podcast.
Carman Pirie: Well, I noted on the podcast website, where you talk about where it’s for leaders who are ready to elevate their skillset to new levels, and I thought it was an interesting kind of point of connectivity to today’s conversation because what you’re noticing is really the skillset of the workforce writ large has essentially rapidly elevated during the time of COVID. And you’re seeing a lot of ramifications of that and implications of it.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just look what happened when the pandemic hit, right? Everybody went home and then we had to work from home. Actually, the pandemic forced us to be home, but then we had to communicate and then still do our tasks, do the projects we were on, keep the world running, and be safe, of course, but the technology we used actually forced us to a new skill level. It was not saying, “Oh, it’ll be nice if you can start using this project software so we can communicate better.” You didn’t have a choice. We were forced actually to upskill to new technologies.
And if I look at my phone, or if I look at what I’ve been on different calls, I’ve learned how to use Zoom. I’ve learned how to use Teams. I’ve learned… I have WhatsApp on my phone because I have certain people in my network that will only use that one, especially if it’s in Europe. You just have to… and everybody has a different user interface. So, it’s forced you to say, “Okay, how could we go on?” It also forced technology companies to change what they’re working on. I think Zoom got hit hard right in the beginning because a lot of companies just jumped on that platform and they had a roller coaster of that roadmap and they also were forced to say, “Okay, we need to speed up because there’s a demand out there.”
So, that’s just on how we’re using the technology, so I think we… It just accelerated all the technology but also the way of working… We’ve jumped many years ahead. If this pandemic wasn’t there, we would have been in another place. Still a good place, I think, but we can also look at the pandemic, it’s been a roller coaster and I’m sad for the ones that turned out sad, but if we could look at the business side of it there’s actually some good stuff that happened because we learned new skills, we learned how to communicate in different ways, and we’re still learning. I’m not saying everybody’s perfect. We’re still getting there.
Carman Pirie: And we’re just at the opening bell, if you will, of now what. Now that everybody’s learned, or at least gotten to a certain base level of skill set with say video conferencing platforms-
Jeff White: Different tools and things.
Carman Pirie: Exactly. Now, it turns to the marketer, the salespeople, to say, “Okay, well, now how do I change, how can I further change what I do knowing that there’s somebody there that’s gonna be able to deal with it,” right?
Jeff White: Well, you think about it, it really is about how do you leverage people’s renewed sophistication or new sophistication with technology? It’s kind of an interesting way. I hadn’t really thought about it that way, but it’s true. Before, everybody knew how to use Facebook. Now, they know how to use all of these other different tools, and they’re bringing that knowledge both into their work, as well as their daily lives, so they’re going to be better at computers and mobile.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. If you were a salesperson three years ago that wanted to try to pioneer doing your sales calls via video, well, you’re gonna be facing a lot of people that you want to sell to that are like, “What are you talking about?” And they can’t use the platform, they don’t want to be on it like there’s a whole… So, you’re almost then that experiment is only going to a very thin slice.
Jeff White: Yeah. And now-
Carman Pirie: Now, you know, you could, I think, dream beyond what people already know, because if they’ve learned that, they’ve also learned how to learn these technologies if you will.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: I don’t know, but look, I’m not the guest on the show. What am I going on about? I don’t know anything. Does that make sense, Sannah? Are we picking up what you’re putting down?
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. I think it drips down, as well, through an organization. They have to revisit their strategy. Where are they heading? And again, the acceleration of skill set also impacted strategy, so if you look at the company, it drills down that the whole digitalization that we’re all going to use more technology, or changing the platform we’re using, or technology we’re using, you had to rethink. So, because… If we take the supply chain, they got hit hard. We’re still hitting hard on our supply chain. But for manufacturers, if they’re waiting, if it’s for more material, or if they’re waiting for product development where they’re working overseas with companies, there’s a lot of delays, or there’s the communication. It takes a couple of days if it’s overseas to get your prototype, to get it approved. There’s a lot of things happening here.
So, if they’re rethinking and saying, “Okay, now that we learned all these new platforms and technologies, could we do nearshoring instead? Or would that benefit us?” And it’s always a balance, because you say, “Oh yeah, but then maybe we pay more for the labor.” But yeah, but on the other hand you’ll say, “Yeah, but we can actually react much faster because it’s a day-to-day communication and now we don’t need to travel.” That could be another one, right? You actually can have that Zoom call or that call on Teams to take some of the faster decisions that you need to do right in here, and then you still need to travel. I don’t think travel will disappear. But in the order of how we work, in the order, we communicate.
And it’s the same with marketing. I have to sit and say okay, what’s the strategy? How do I get the engineers to the website? How do I get them to get interested? Do they need to see our manufacturing place? Will that help them to see this is what it looks like instead of actually waiting to say oh, I need to talk to somebody in sales. I need to arrange a visit. What is it that they need? Or is it a little chatbot so you can actually get answers right there and then instead of you’re emailing in and then you have to wait for I don’t know how many days sometimes? But having a chatbot right there can answer the questions, or if you have a FAQ on your website that can help you answer some of these questions that you have.
So, there are so many different ways that you can present and get the information that’s important for your user so they can make some decisions or get much faster in what they’re working on.
Carman Pirie: It’s interesting to consider rapid and broad-based adoption of new digital tools and what the implications are there. I find it interesting when talking to people through the course of the pandemic, interviewing guests on the show. There seems to be at least a thread, those people that can’t wait to get back to trade shows, you know? Like the folks that almost… They almost hate the fact that they’ve been on. I think a lot of us hate the fact that we’ve been on kind of video calls for so long. And so, it seemed as though they were almost… There was gonna be-
Jeff White: A deluge.
Carman Pirie: … an equal and opposite reaction, I guess, for the adoption. To say, “Let’s move.” But then I kind of almost liken it, I think, to negative advertising in politics. Everybody likes to say it doesn’t work, but it works. And maybe nobody likes to say that they like some of these new digital tools and meeting this way, but it works, and I think part of what you’re saying here, Sannah, is that you’re betting that it’s going to persist. That this new skillset shift, that there won’t be a regression. That this is a permanent fast forward that has happened.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. No, it… Trade show will come back. Conferences will come back. We still need to be in person, and talk, and get inspired, and exchange. I think just the sequence of how things are happening has changed and that will stay on. So, again, if you take a salesperson, if they, in the old days, like we call the old days, right? They will maybe visit and say, “Hey, look at my kit right here. Are there any of these components? What are you working on?” The ways they communicate to customers have changed. And that’s also just been on the whole, all the digitization, as well, that you research more before you actually have that conversation saying, “Hey, I actually want to talk to you guys now.”
But back to the salesperson, they won’t travel as much in the beginning, and nursing customers in the same way. They will travel when actually there are bigger projects to work on. So, that has for sure changed. And I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of organizations that need to restructure or think, and saying, “Okay, what is our strategy going to the market and with sales and marketing, what does that look like?” Because of habits and lifestyles, things have changed.
Carman Pirie: And there used to be an age divide in that, right? If you look to the way that they would see sales potentially happening in the future and there might be some younger adopters in the sales organization, but the old people were-
Jeff White: Now it’s everybody.
Carman Pirie: Now it’s everybody. And then there’s the other side of it, or kind of almost an amplifier to it I think is that let’s be honest, the old people have just gone away. Like this year in the U.S. alone, I think I read an article the other day, two million more baby boomers retiring than were already expected to retire. Which is of course adding to the labor crunch and all of that, but you know, some of those two million are salespeople.
Jeff White: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: You know?
Jeff White: For sure.
Carman Pirie: And they’re not being replaced with folks that don’t know technology.
Jeff White: Yeah. The other thing that I think it makes interesting to consider is how, you know, if meeting in person is now going to be less frequent, or to put it another way, maybe even more precious when you do finally get to meet, you can look at how you use those in-person meetings, those in-person times in a very different way, whereas before, that was kind of just… That was just how it worked. Everybody, you met as many times as you needed to and all of that. Maybe now that’s only really happening at a transition phase, where it’s moving from sales into service, or whatever. There are interesting opportunities I think to leverage that dance a little bit in how it gets performed.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. Recalibrate how it unfolds.
Jeff White: Yeah.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. I agree. It has changed. And again, not every company will be the same… will not have the same journey. So, there will be the ones that get it and are fast at doing this transformation through the organization, and then there will be companies that won’t be as fast. And I’m sure not all of them will survive because this has changed the world we live in.
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Jeff White: I’d like to get into a little bit what prompted you to start the podcast, and what are some of the things that you’ve learned that you didn’t anticipate?
Sannah Vinding: So, I love communities. So, on the marketing side, I’m a member of different communities, and that’s where I get inspired. I learned I can ask a good question, I can ask questions where I’m maybe not a pro, and then I turn into being a pro after because I get help. So, I was like, “Okay, this is really great, this community. How can I create a community around innovation?” I’m also on the board on LPPDE, which is a product development organization that actually helps in going in and saying, “How can we innovate in a more structured way,” and lean product development.
So, I was looking at these two and I was like, “How can I create this community?” So, actually, I created a community. We are a handful of members, and we meet every month. And it’s great. And we started to trust each other. And that’s just, again, called Mind The Innovation. But I didn’t expand it because that group turned out to be really good because it was a small network and by trusting each other, we got closer to each other, so I was like, “Okay, what can I do? How can I expand it so it can actually go further out?” So, that’s where I said, “Okay, what if I created a podcast called the same, Mind The Innovation, invited experts in, asked the questions?” And it’s from strategy, it’s to communication, it’s from HR, touching all these subjects that we are talking about.
Last week, we talked about habits, you know? What can we… How do we get these bad habits? How do we get good habits? And that actually, some of the outcomes from these meetings that we have in the community, I bring them back into the podcast, and then I can reach a much bigger audience. So, that’s why.
Jeff White: I love that, both about how you’ve done it and about podcasting in general, because it really does create a network of interconnected people who’ve had a similar experience. When you think about what you’ve learned there, how might you bring that back to VCC? Or how do you bring your thoughts there and how is that received?
Sannah Vinding: So, it’s a learning journey for me, and as I said earlier, I love to learn. So, to be in the leadership team, you need to be able to lift up your head and look further out, and look ahead, and say, “What’s the strategy?” And five years ahead, 10 years ahead, what’s going to happen? So, being able to have experts on my podcast and ask them questions, I can ask and get a really good dialogue and say, “But what if this happened? Or what will you have done? Or what do you see as a challenge?” So, it actually opens up my world even bigger to have that broader perspective on what’s going on in the world.
And also looking into different industries, because sometimes you can sit in your own little manufacturing world and say, “Oh, everything is good.” But by looking out, and looking into the medical, or looking into just different industries, or looking and saying, “Okay, what’s actually happening in HR that’s going to impact the company where I’m working at? What is it that I need to be prepared for?” So, it actually makes me a much better person. It gives me an opportunity to ask questions, which I love, and I think that’s one of the biggest… It’s just so important in your whole life. Keep asking questions, because that’s how you learn. And it’s okay to ask the same question more than one time if you don’t understand the answer or if you just wanted to go deeper.
So, that’s just… Yeah. I’m becoming a better me.
Jeff White: Self-help through podcasting.
Carman Pirie: Exactly right. Well, I know the technology kind of skill set if you will in this instance wasn’t inspired necessarily by the pandemic, but it’s interesting-
Jeff White: It’s accelerated with it.
Carman Pirie: Well, and it’s an interesting case of another example of a technology shift in some way, podcasting enabling a different way of learning, basically, and a different way of networking. And you know, so it’s not that dissimilar from how our adoption of video, et cetera, across the workforce, also changes just how we can absorb. I’m kind of curious. I can’t imagine in the product development side of things that this hasn’t also impacted there like it’s probably easier for you to get feedback from customers because of the new technologies, maybe integrate with and collaborate with other engineers in a more seamless way, I guess. Has that been your experience?
Sannah Vinding: Yeah, but so new product development, you get input from a lot of places. It could be on the trends, what’s going on. It’s from the engineers that you have in your team. It’s from the sales team talking to customers. It’s the customers asking questions, so you go into the log and say, “What are they asking? What is it that we don’t have?” And it’s a lot of these questions. It’s to talk to distribution and say, “What are you hearing?” And also, always, always look at the car industry. What’s going on there? Because they’re always ahead of the game. Yeah, just from human-machine interface to colors, the car industry is right there.
So, to get all that input in, and making sure then that you put it on your roadmap and your way of sorting the information, and then saying, “Okay, this is maybe a cool factor product, but it doesn’t match all the criteria that we have.” Or you saying, “Yes, it actually matches everything. This is a gap in our portfolio. We need to bring it in.” But to get all the information as you said, yes, that has been much easier. Because everybody is answering the phone, or you can connect with them on different social media platforms, and saying, “Hey, I need some input. Do you have time?”
And everybody got lonely being remote. I know we’re slowly going back, and, in some companies, you have more hybrid, where you’re home a few days a week and you’re in the office a few days a week, but everybody got a little bit lonely. We got tired of the webinars. We wanted to hug and say, “Hey, how’s it going?” So, when I’ve been reaching out to find out what’s going on, what is trending, what is it the engineers are having trouble with, it has been easier because they were hungry to meet a person, even though it’s just in 2D on the computer.
Jeff White: No holograms yet.
Sannah Vinding: No.
Carman Pirie: The technology exists. It’s just… I don’t know. We haven’t adopted it.
Jeff White: Why would we?
Carman Pirie: Cisco came out with that some time ago, right? Remember? They had that conference that they had like people were in the U.S. but it was they were on a stage holographically in Italy or something?
Jeff White: Yeah. Maybe TED. Yeah. The one thing I think what’s interesting about that, and to kind of bring it back to a more marketing side, too, is that notion of using the tools to gather the requests and understand the customer requirements, that doesn’t just inform the product. It informs how you market the product too, eh?
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. Yeah. But if you… I think I always look at ‘how do I…’ If I’m looking for something new, what do I do? I go to Google. I search. How do I search? I write a question and then I look at who’s answering, what comes up. And then if like, “Yeah, it didn’t hit,” I search again. It’s all about being the best out there that can answer the questions. To solve, actually. To solve the questions that an engineer will have. So, that puts me back in my engineering mindset of saying, “Okay, if I’m working with electronics or designing a device, what will I be looking for?”
And again, expanding out, because you don’t want to just have the same portfolio. We want to expand our portfolio. We want to have new categories. So, that brings everything together there. And again, you need to ask questions when you talk to engineers. And for them to fill out a form, you won’t get what’s in between the white lines on that form, and that’s where you get some of these nuggets, so it’s so good to have that conversation with the engineers and saying, “What did you struggle with?” Or also just saying, “How did you find this product,” if it’s something they’re already using some of the components because then you learn a thing. “Oh, that’s what you searched on? I didn’t know that was the word(s) that you used, so let me make sure that I expand on that word so more engineers can find it.”
Jeff White: A bit of an old-school way of approaching SEO. Rather than just looking at the tools and trying to analyze people have found you, you know, to be a bit more focused on the users.
Carman Pirie: And I find that often, I’ve chatted with a number of engineers who are marketers, and they tend to look at the world through the questions being… the problem that’s being solved for, and that the notion of the questions persist, and the solutions change over time, of course, as new innovations come along. But the notion of owning the answers to the question I think does make sense from an SEO perspective.
Jeff White: Absolutely.
Carman Pirie: My challenge to it might be the self-reference criteria. You know, how you ask the question may not be how somebody else does, but then just as I was about to challenge you on it, you told me that you listen to other engineers and see how they ask the question, so I didn’t have a chance to do anything.
Sannah Vinding: No, but I think you’re saying it’s old fashioned, but if you want to stand out or be an expert in your field, you need to have answers for what you have right now as your product, your offering, or what your service is that you’re offering. You need to stand out and say, “Yeah, we stand behind it and we can answer it.” And then that’s the foundation. And from there, that’s where you grow. So, when you do the Google search, right? Did you earn it, or did you actually just pay for a Google ad, and then you’re showing up there? And I think earning to be on that front page gives much more trust to a company. When I look through when I’m Googling, I’m not looking at the ads first, because they actually bought their way in to be there. They didn’t earn it.
Jeff White: Now, that is an interesting conversation we could get into.
Carman Pirie: Well, of course, we know that that’s true, but then we also know that the polarity in terms of buying intent of a click in somebody that interacts with an ad is higher than somebody who interacts with an organic search listing.
Jeff White: Yeah. But I do get the trust angle.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. There’s no question. That’s why it’s best to earn… Why choose when you can own both?
Jeff White: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: Yeah.
Sannah Vinding: Yeah. Agree. But I also know we had customers saying, “I actually clicked on you because you didn’t have an ad. That gave me more trust.” And we have a bigger footprint in that topic because we earn organic search on it. But then I’m sure you can have somebody else saying, “Yeah, but if you have both, then it’s like doubling up and then I definitely clicked on it.” There’s so much, right? Marketing is a whole puzzle of what to do best and you can do A and B testing and experiment and stuff like that. I think it comes down to when you actually then get the click, do you actually answer, and do you actually bring value to that engineer. That’s what it comes down to.
Carman Pirie: Absolutely.
Sannah Vinding: And how you get there, you don’t know, but if they find the value, they’ll come back. If they find the value, they’ll stay around and check out your website. Or other places.
Carman Pirie: I think that’s critically important. Whether they… If you paid to bring them into a destination or you’ve earned their way there, at the end of the day-
Jeff White: Did they get what they wanted?
Carman Pirie: Yeah. Have you answered the question? Yeah. It’s good advice.
Jeff White: And I think too, what great advice for… especially to think about the persona that you’re trying to talk to because they’re going to think of those things differently. You know, an engineer might be more likely to implicitly trust organic listings than others.
Carman Pirie: I always find it interesting when we talk about engineers like they’re this other type of a quasi-human species.
Jeff White: When nothing could be further from the truth.
Carman Pirie: Yeah.
Jeff White: Looking at how we need to use things and designing things around it.
Sannah Vinding: But you know if you click on something, on an ad, it’s going to follow you wherever you’re going. Even if you go to YouTube, suddenly it shows up there. If you Google something else, it shows up there. So, there are certain engineers, I’m pretty sure, like, “I don’t want that.” So…
Jeff White: Fair enough.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I enjoyed today’s chat.
Jeff White: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: This has been a fascinating conversation. I’ve loved kind of just unpacking your world a little bit between VCC and the podcast, and it’s been charming. Thank you so much.
Sannah Vinding: Thank you so much. It was fun.
Jeff White: Thanks, Sannah.
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