Transforming Engineering Knowledge into Engaging Marketing Content with Technical WritingTransforming Engineering Knowledge into Engaging Marketing Content with Technical Writing

Transforming Engineering Knowledge into Engaging Marketing Content with Technical Writing Transcript:

Announcer: You’re listening to The Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White. 

Jeff White: Welcome to The Kula Ring, a podcast for manufacturing marketers brought to you by Kula Partners. My name is Jeff White and joining me today is Carman Pirie. Carman, how are you doing, sir?

Carman Pirie: Look, Jeff, like I’m… We’re recording this not that long before I head on vacation, so I’m like one foot out the door, you know? Really. 

Jeff White: But still, your head is fully in it. 

Carman Pirie: Well, kind of. As much as it ever is, really, I’d say. But that’s-

Jeff White: There’s a ringing endorsement. 

Carman Pirie: Oh, you know, I try not to oversell. 

Jeff White: No, for sure. But you know, it’s always good to record some interesting episodes. You’ll be on the continent for a little while. 

Carman Pirie:  Exactly. Exactly. 

Jeff White: Hard to reach. 

Carman Pirie: I love the opportunity to… Through the course of the show, we’ve had a lot of people that approach manufacturing marketing or impact it from various different angles, and-

Jeff White: Yeah. Very different backgrounds, too. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. And I’ve gotta say we have interviewed on occasion folks that come from an engineering background and are working on the marketing side of things for manufacturers, and to quote our favourite movie, No Country for Old Men, that’s certainly when I feel outmatched. 

Jeff White: Yes. They have knowledge that we just can’t understand. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah. I could channel an old acquaintance who was an electrical technician who used to work with electrical engineers, so he made his whole career basically out of making fun of engineers and the pinkie ring, so I could probably have like three or four of those jokes in my… But let’s not do that. 

Jeff White: No, I don’t think that that’s appropriate. No. 

Carman Pirie: But if I have to resort to that in order to feel better about myself in the course of this conversation, then we’ll know what’s happened. 

Jeff White: I don’t think you will. I think you’ll be fine. Yeah, but it is… I think manufacturing marketing is one of the few professions where you do see people coming from these very diverse backgrounds and finding that they have a real… something incredibly interesting and different to offer. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah. A perspective-

Jeff White: In a marketing space. 

Carman Pirie:  A perspective that a lot of marketers really find it hard to get to, really. 

Jeff White: Yeah. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah, so without further ado, let’s get on with it. 

Jeff White: Indeed. So, joining us today is Adam Kimmel, and Adam is a Content Writer and Strategist for engineers and technical audiences. Welcome to The Kula Ring, Adam. 

Adam Kimmel: Thanks so much for having me, guys. I appreciate being on. 

Carman Pirie: Yeah. Adam, it’s great to have you on the show and let’s get underway and tell us a little bit about just yourself and your work and background, just to ground our audience, if you would. 

Adam Kimmel: Sure. Well, speaking of diverse backgrounds, I started as a research engineer, so I worked… I got a degree in chemical engineering and worked making fuel cell components, hydrogen reactors, these kinds of things, for stationary and automotive fuel cell systems. So, then I completed my master’s degree in mechanical engineering, which is kind of how I got into manufacturing, so I’m a hybrid engineer by training. But through all of that, all my work has been research-based, so I’ve spent years working on electric vehicles, heat exchangers for data center cooling, and things of that nature. 

And so, really just a lot of diverse products, but through all that they were innovative. And so, I’ve spent a lot of my career on the front end of things and working kind of intellectual property, and through patents, and that’s how I began to realize the power that writing can have because I had to explain one of these complicated ideas to a lawyer who had to translate it into something somebody at the government could patent. And so, what I found was continually they wouldn’t get it right, and so I had to go back, and revise, and review and I said, “You know what? I’m just gonna write this myself.” 

Well, you know, after that it was like, “All right, maybe there’s a need for this.” This complicated stuff, engineers create such great products. Do they really understand how to explain it to people? And that’s kind of where I caught the marketing bug and began to kind of pivot to doing that, helping other companies do that, and helping explain the great products that they create, what they are, and why they are important. 

Jeff White: I think that word that you used there that really resonates is translation because you’re… and each layer of that, whether it was the engineer translating to you what the product was, and you translating to the lawyer so that they could write the patent application, and then them translating into legalese and government speak in order to get it approved. You know, the further down the line that you can go in terms of getting closer to the customer with that translation and tie it back to what engineering’s original intent was, I think is really probably the secret here. 

Carman Pirie:  Yeah. Otherwise, it almost feels like a game of content telephone. 

Jeff White: Yeah. 

Adam Kimmel: Well, right. And like energy conversion, every time you translate it, it gets a little bit more diluted and more messed up than the prior one, so you want to limit the number of conversion steps you have to go through, so definitely agree. 

Carman Pirie: And I love that notion of you kind of mentioned that you kind of work on the front end of things, like the emerging technologies that hadn’t previously existed, so they’re new products solving problems in new ways, and that’s even harder to kind of described because, in some ways, you don’t have other things to compare it to or… Do you know what I mean? I think of it as akin to marketing something in a category that people almost didn’t know existed yet, right? So, there’s a… It seems to be an interesting challenge there. 

Adam Kimmel: Yeah. And that’s really where the engineering training comes in really handy, because we’re taught throughout schooling and everywhere else to find the gaps and find the white space, so engineers learn how to learn in school, and once we start researching and studying, we apply a lot of those principles to figure out where are the gaps. And so, when doing content, it’s very similar. Helping companies find their value propositions have been something that I didn’t expect to do, but if they have, and they come, and they realize they want content, but they can’t figure out why anybody would pick them versus another, and they can’t articulate that, and so through the research process and interviews with their subject team, it becomes pretty clear. Well, this is the magic, guys, over here, whereas you’re focused on maybe a product solution or some more technical thing that’s harder to explain. 

And so, communicating through the research and summaries that you find why what they’ve got is so impactful I think has been the shift. And once people see that and get that, then the audience, then the consumers and customers come alongside and realize the power of what they’ve just seen. 

Carman Pirie: You know, is it the case that they just can’t read the label from inside the jar? Or is it… I guess I’m just kind of curious why you think… Why is it that you feel you’re able to capture the unique selling proposition for a particular product that the company hasn’t been able to kind of wrap their arms around yet? What do you think the difference is? Is it just in perspective? Or are they too close to it?

Adam Kimmel: I think that’s a large part of it. I love the analogy between the label and the jar. That’s so… And it’s almost cliché because you… This is why consultants exist. Oh, we want to bring in somebody with a fresh set of eyes and this type of thing. But they solved such a complicated technical problem that there is such pride in what the engineers have done, that’s what they want to talk about and explain why what they did was so difficult and important to solve. But in that, it’s so much more about the what than the why. Go back to the first meeting two years ago as to what the problem was that was presented to them, who it helps, and why it’s important. You have to set the table with that before you can bring along anybody to understand and appreciate why it’s so impactful. 

And you know, once you get the why established, then they’re with you for the what, and then they’re gonna want to hear about the journey you took, and the problems you encountered, and how you unlock them, and where the innovation is. But if they don’t understand the why, they’re not gonna assign value to it and they won’t necessarily appreciate it as much, and they’re probably not gonna buy it. So, that’s the importance of that journey, I think. 

Carman Pirie: They won’t pay attention in the first place, right?

Adam Kimmel: Right. They’ll just keep scrolling or however, they’ve come upon what you’ve done. You have to grab them right away and tell them why it’s important. 

Carman Pirie: I guess as you do that as part of your research and working with clients, I’m curious. How often do you find somebody that’s forgotten the why? Like they’ve been in product development so long that they almost forgot why they were doing it?

Adam Kimmel: It happens a lot and you know, I was working with a client a few months ago that shared that they developed a product and weren’t sure what the reason was that they developed it. It was a multi-year cycle. They invested all this capital and research in there and they got to a product, they weren’t sure who to sell it to or why it even existed. And that really underscores the need for technical marketing. It’s to make sure that engineers don’t go down the rabbit hole without guard rails and without context. 

They’re going to solve whatever problem’s in front of them, and so, directing that horsepower in the right area is critical. Otherwise, you lose time, and I don’t know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars went into that initiative that had little to no return on the back end. 

Jeff White: Man, it really speaks to understanding, to ensure… You know, in the other direction, that your engineers are talking to your salespeople, your service folks, and all of that, and truly understanding what are the things that people are saying are problems and what can our products do to help them solve that, rather than just building this new product and then kind of coming to the end of it and going, “Well, crap. I don’t know who the heck is gonna buy this.” 

Carman Pirie: I’m almost imagining the marketer has to fight for every sliver of budget and hearing that engineering’s been off building this thing, didn’t quite know why. 

Adam Kimmel: Yeah. Absolutely. And it really… That problem to solve is the key and if… I mean, engineers are gonna solve whatever’s on their desk, and so making sure that they’re focused on the right problem and the problem the company wants them to solve… I don’t know. It can save a lot of headaches and it can create something a lot more beneficial for the market and for the client base in general. 

Carman Pirie: So, as an engineer, writing engineering content, often it’s to sell to other engineers. And so, I’m curious, so I really appreciate the guidance around starting with the why, beginning with that problem that’s being solved, and then you could get into the detail, and we hear so much in manufacturing marketing about how engineers crave the detail. So then, I want to go a couple of ways with this first. I want to… I guess let’s first get your… I’m curious about your opinion on that. Is that true in your experience? Is that the case, that engineers really… they want to have that encyclopedic level of detail in the content that they’re consuming? 

Adam Kimmel: Engineers, more than any discipline I’ve ever worked with, and I lump myself into this category, as well. I don’t like to react unless I have enough information to make me feel confident in what I say. I’m not gonna wander into the woods in the middle of a sentence, in the middle of a meeting, and not know how I got there or how to get out. So, the data helps provide confidence. If I’m reading a paper, my eyes are gravitating toward a graph. The graph will tell you leaps and bounds more than any paragraph could. And so, I think that that point is absolutely accurate. 

So, yes, they want data, but the part I’ll maybe balance that with is engineers also have a fair amount of imposter syndrome, everyone I’ve ever met. And, they’ll never admit it unless they’re together, usually at a bar, but that exists in a big way. And as soon as they get anywhere outside of the scope of what their expertise is in, they appreciate a little bit higher level details and context before diving into this data. So, they appreciate being brought along and almost the notion of…  I know you guys understand this, but just to reground on what this topic is and then get into the graphs and technical data. They appreciate the heck out of that, and I think so often when an engineer, without any marketing context, goes to write, they go right to journal paper mode. They got into thesis mode where it’s all about how many syllables can I get in the title of this thing and how many… to prove authority in an area. To make sure that the audience realizes this is an expert in what they’re talking about. 

And that works for journal papers. It doesn’t work for content because if I’m reading about if I’m a chemical and mechanical engineer and I’m reading about electrical things, it’s gonna go over my head. I’ll never admit it as an introverted engineer, but it will, and I’m not gonna stick there, and I’m not gonna try to look for how it can help me or how I can play. I’m just gonna continue on because it’s overwhelming. And so, that connection, that almost bridges from topic to data a lot of times. I think what gets missed in this notion is that engineers are just, “Just throw data at us and we’ll love it.” There’s a little more to it than that. There’s a bridge to cross before you get there. 

Jeff White: I love… What you’re really saying is that “Hey, engineers are people too and they want to be led into the thing that they…” They’re not just mindless data nerds, you know? Really, they want to be spoken to like humans. 

Adam Kimmel: Exactly. In the language they understood, which ends up being more technical verbiage and data. But it doesn’t start in the middle of a story. 

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Carman Pirie: I have two opinions here, so on the one hand, I’m thinking maybe you just don’t run into these kinds of marketers because the kind of marketers that are smart enough to hire you value technical content. But I can… I guess I can tell you that I encounter manufacturing marketers on a fairly regular basis that will say something like, “We really have a lot of copy on our homepage. We’d really like to trim that back, do more video, maybe do more photography because people don’t like to read.” Which, of course, translates into, “I don’t like to read and therefore I think everybody’s like me.” So, I guess I’ve kind of told you my opinion on it, but how do you deal with that? Have you encountered that in your work? And I guess what’s the… How have you been able to bring them over to your way of thinking? –

Adam Kimmel: Well, I think it’s a good point and video has certainly disrupted even the digital content industry. I mean, there was putting print on a screen, and then, “All right, well, now we’re converting to video.” Not everybody has the availability, especially engineers that have day jobs and sit at their desks, to watch a video. And so, okay, they’ll subtitle it. Well, there are some words. But I think the point is engineers appreciate the content in different formats. They will go to a video. They’ll like to see an infographic, which is kind of leading into the graph end of things. 

But they prefer, when they really want to understand something, they may start with those media, but they always come back to something written. They want a document. They want a white paper with some thought leadership, some authority. They want a case study more than anything else. Show me how you’ve done this in the past. Who was it successful for? How were they similar to what I might be doing to give an insight as to how it might work for me? 

The other content forms, it’s almost an augmentation, not a taking away from the written content. That’s how it’s introduced in various forms. It kind of brings them in. But then they are still looking for thought leadership before they make up their mind. And that… It just reinforces and concretes everything that they’ve seen in the other videos and things beforehand, but they are gonna want that document that they can pull out at any given point to reinforce their perspective on the topic. 

Jeff White: That to me makes me think, you know, what… In the work that you’ve been doing, what have you seen as some of the most successful examples? Like what types of content and what’s really worked for you recently? 

Adam Kimmel: Yeah. White papers tend to be the most impactful. So, I’ve written a lot around, ‘Here’s a technical opinion.’ In the alternative energy world, it might be why hydrogen is a more likely path to alternative energy than batteries or something. We’re gonna have heated debates among those communities about, “Well, I don’t agree with that at all. It takes so much energy to make hydrogen. What about electrolysis requires all this energy on the front end?” And then the converse of that is how do you recycle batteries, and where does the lithium come from, and all those issues. 

Stating an opinion that may not be universally accepted, but then supporting it, is really how change happens. And so, I saw… You know, an example of that is a white paper I wrote for a company that was looking to establish themselves as a thought leader in their industry. They were in industrial manufacturing in automation, and the white paper ended up… Something like a 200% improvement in engagement in the space where they were using the white paper over… I forget the period of time. I think a quarter. 

And it just really speaks to the fact that if you make a point, it doesn’t have to be universally popular. But if you support it the right way, using data and using trends, it is impactful. And it matters to the people. Even if they’re not technical, the people reading that, if you’ve made your case and can support it, maybe if a marketer reads it and bounces it off his technical team, you’ve done something and you’ve shifted it. And that’s how minds can be changed rather than yelling something at someone almost in effect and just demanding that you’re right because… Well, I’ve done this for 30 years and this is my perspective. 

Well, but why? There’s gotta be a healthy debate and a healthy challenge, and people like to read a fair amount of disagreement and friction to understand where maybe the guard rails are or where the technology has evolved. Maybe in the last five years, the IoT has brought up one technology past another, whereas historically they weren’t in that order. Things change and engineers appreciate the dynamics. But they want to have you prove it to them versus just stating it. 

Carman Pirie: There’s kind of two points to your advice there. One it seems is to take a position-

Jeff White: Which we love. 

Carman Pirie: … and the other is to back it up. Yeah. So, I guess I’m kind of curious. Do you find that people are more likely to take a position and not back it up or are they more likely to just not take a position, to try to be everything to everybody, or to water down? 

Adam Kimmel: Well, the safest path is always the second one, right? You can always say something like, “Well, we need green energy.” Great. What do I do with that? That doesn’t mean anything to anyone. Well, the sun is shining. Are we done? No, not… You know. But to take a position is a risk. You’re at risk of alienating somebody. And so, very rarely do I see somebody take a position and not at least try to support it. What I see is just content that’s almost impossible to argue with, but the problem with that is you want them to agree with you. At least somebody. But you also want them to engage with it. And if there’s no debate, if there’s no discussion to have, you’ve made a point, good to know. The wind is free. Okay. Moving on, what do you do with that? There’s nothing to engage with. Nothing to say. Nothing to debate. 

So, you know, taking a position and making a supporting point, and then sending it back over the net to go, “Look, do you agree with this? What is your perspective? What is your experience with this?” That’s how dialogue, conversations, and ultimately engagement start. Because then you’ll see the passion come out, you know. Someone will say, “You don’t need to automate this process. You can just do it manually and just look for ways to lean out the manufacturing.” Well, okay, but if you automate it, there’s a capital investment and here’s the payback. Well, okay. Well, you’re costing jobs and you’re… Okay, now the discussion is happening. Now, things are opening up. And so, although the trend has been to have diluted content that everybody agrees with, that’s not the path to engagement at all. 

Carman Pirie: I can’t help but see the parallels to one of my favourite advertising blogger/columnists, et cetera, Dave Trott, who I was just recently reading. He’s out of the UK and I was reading some commentary from him around advertising that gets noticed versus doesn’t. There’s like 89% of ads just don’t get noticed at all. And then of the 11% that do, 7% are remembered negatively and 4% positively. But the notion is that in order to have a shot at being in that 4% that gets remembered fondly, you’ve gotta be committed to being in the 11% that gets noticed. 

And you know, it sounds like it’s the exact same thing for content. I mean, really, it’s just this is just the way humans work, and it’s another way that it’s coming to life in some way. 

Adam Kimmel: Well, yeah. I mean, I think too, the goal is most engineers go into it to try to change something for the better. I went into it to save the environment. This was my personal mission. This was kind of why I do what I do. I want to educate people on these things. Manufacturing plays such a huge role in that, making manufacturing simpler, making more products, just adopting new technologies, adopting green technologies, all these things play so well together, and in order to change something, something has to be different. And if something’s different, it’s not comfortable. 

So, I mean the first step is to make somebody uncomfortable with an idea and a thought, and to go, “All right. Well, now that you’re uncomfortable, here’s how it could look. Here’s an idea of how you could get there.” And you know, they’re not gonna like it, maybe on the front end, and some people just resist change, but I think at the end of the day, as engineers or problem solvers, we want change. We want to improve and do better. I mean, combustion engines are 30% efficient. As an engineer, I can’t accept that. That’s… 3 out of 10? No! We can do better than that. 

And so, that was really when I started with fuel cells, one of the first appeals to me, I was like, “I think we can do a heck of a lot better than 30%,” and it’s gonna be bumpy and disruptive, but we’re certainly gonna try. 

Carman Pirie: I’m struck in your comments by the juxtaposition between B2B manufacturers being basically, industrial manufacturers being viewed by most as being quite risk-averse in their marketing. Not particularly interested in change in terms of how they sell. And then often the next word that comes out of the mouths of people saying that is that they’re led by engineers predominantly. Engineers and accountants, you know? 

But then you just said engineers, like the definition of being an engineer, is embracing a desire for change. I just like… I feel like there’s something, there’s a bridge we need to cross here. There are some dots that we can connect, and everybody wins. 

Adam Kimmel: I mean, there’s an aversion to risk and change and then there’s a desire to improve, and I think once engineers realize that they create products in the context of a business, that’s where that happens. The cost guys get a hold of it and say, “Well, this isn’t manufacturing viable. We’re not gonna invest this much here because of low orders this quarter.” Or whatever it is. So, the commercial piece ends up kind of shutting down the fire and the passion around a product idea. 

And so, that’s again, I think content is where that is solved. I think if the business people, marketers, and executives reading it understand how a short-term investment may lead to long-term change, could I have written something for Blockbuster to tell them about what Netflix was trying to do? You know, something like that. If you can see what’s going to happen, there’s a penalty to not act. And that’s… Not acting is a decision, and there’s often a penalty to that, and kind of walking them down the trend of where this is leading might be how some of that discomfort gets swallowed versus just outright rejected. 

Carman Pirie: It’s been… I’ve just really enjoyed this kind of meandering conversation about technical content. It’s really… It’s just fascinating to me and a subject that I think could probably be covered for days. I’m curious, I guess… I mean, in your work, I’m sure you’ve seen people that have done this well and others that maybe haven’t. But one thing I think I find marketers really struggle with is like not every marketer coming into this has that engineering background that you have, so they need to be able to tap into the engineering talent that’s in-house, and I guess I’m curious. Do you have any tips for how they can maybe do that, or how you’ve been most successful in kind of partnering with in-house engineering teams as you try to extract the information you need?

Adam Kimmel: Yeah, and that’s really where the most important part of the research is. I mean, when you engage with the internal subject matter experts, you find the truth… Where’s the passion, first of all? Where’s the magic, second of all. And what problems have they actually solved versus the one they set out to solve? You’ll hear the war stories of how it came to be. And that’s the interesting part to do. 

And so, to unlock that, I need basically the marketer, usually if it’s an agency, just to connect me with the subject matter expert. Then we can talk as engineers and technical peers. Engineers are gonna be initially, a lot of times, pretty averse to a marketer coming in and asking them questions about why they did what they did. They’re gonna feel like it’s an audit, or like it’s some kind of an evaluation of their work, and I think as an engineer, realizing the thought process, I’ve had a lot of success in at least starting those conversations and relationships out of a place of… I know this. This is similar to what it looks like you’ve done. Can you tell me more about this? And just get them talking. Get them talking about what they’re passionate about and then they open up and realize that you’re there to help the mission and you’re there to help the cause, to pull out the interesting thing. Not just for the internal team, but for someone reading about this to learn more about it. 

And you know, and then the other thing I’ve found helpful is marketers want their own engineering teams to be able to write. Well, you can’t just hand them a pen. It’s not as simple as that. So, they’ve gotta realize that there are some principles and fundamentals, not just with the writing itself. I mean, the funnel introduction and the three paragraphs, but it’s more how will somebody find this online and how will they tie it to our company? And so, I’ve started a course for this to help engineers learn some of these digital marketing principles. What actually is SEO? Why is it not evil? And how could it help me? This kind of stuff and how do you write effectively for the audience you’re trying to reach. 

And so, I think the course will kick off in the fall, but it’s meant for marketing teams to say, “Well, here’s my staff of engineers. Can you help them take the first step in writing in the way that we need them to write to get their great ideas shareable and out for the greater market to see?” And so, that’s I think the power of unlocking it, is one, to understand the language that they want you to talk as a marketer, but then also how to frame the way they think from the technical side into what somebody actually would care about when reading about what they did. 

Jeff White: Yeah. I mean, this idea of assuming that you can just hand an engineer a pen and expect them to write good marketing content is about the same as getting an engineer to hand a slide rule to a marketer and tell them to go design a machine. It’s just not gonna happen. 

Adam Kimmel: No. And the issue is they’re gonna write you a journal paper and it’s gonna flop because the mission of each of those is totally different. And so, their perspective is gonna be, “Well, I wrote my thesis. I’m gonna pull that out and just see what I kind of did there. Or I’m gonna pull out this paper that I submitted to ASME and just see what the… Okay, they looked for an abstract.” So, they’ll probably write you an abstract as the first paragraph, and I’m like… When you look at that, it’s impactful for the journal, but it isn’t impactful for the marketing side, and that… The default isn’t gonna be right, so there has to be that connection and that shift in the way they think about what they’re writing before they can just go off, and I think this is the reason freelancers exist, and certainly one of the benefits that I’ve been able to see is the clients I work with… It doesn’t happen all the time, but there’s often a change in their approach after working with me. 

They see, “Oh, we’ve been going about this wrong. Your process is helping us figure out how to get to some of these critical points and how to explain them in a way that’s interesting to people versus here’s some really hard stuff we did. Aren’t we great? Come buy from us.” 

It feels pushy. It feels like almost a cold call, that you’re beating them up with data. And that’s not… It’s all about inbound, engaging, and enrolling, versus, “Hey, look at this. Hurry up. Hey, hey, you. Let’s publish five articles. Look at this technology.” No. You have to explain why first and then go from there. 

Carman Pirie: I’m really excited about this course offering. I think it’s something that I could really see a lot of engineering teams benefiting from and frankly, what’s exciting is that it’s the ideas that get successfully communicated that spread, right? And that’s what you’re empowering there, I think, is how basically ideas will spread in the future, is more like how they spread online versus how they spread in journal papers, right? 

Adam Kimmel: Well, yeah. And I think manufacturing is waking up to this. They’re kind of at the peak of the light-off point. I mean, I see there’s a lot of great content being out there, but as an industry, as a discipline, I think they’re really poised for a light off. Much like the technology industry has done with IoT, they’re fully invested in content. I think manufacturing is now seeing the power of that and really doubling down and getting behind some campaigns. Not just a blog post, but how about a whole marketing campaign? Let’s design a white paper, two case studies, and a series of blog posts to highlight the benefits of this technology. And they see the power. So, when you see that happening, you can’t help but be excited for it, right? Because you know, it’s finally the intersection of engineering and marketing where both appreciate the other skill sets and they can work together versus conflicting and kind of tripping over each other throughout this. It’s more of a collaborative effort leveraging each strength and then inviting the audience along the way. 

Carman Pirie:  I can’t think of a better way to end the show than that, good sir, so I thank you for joining us today. It’s been great. 

Adam Kimmel: Yeah. Thanks so much. Great discussion. 

Jeff White: Wonderful, Adam. Cheers. 

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