The Kula Ring podcast is essential listening for manufacturing marketers who want to grow their digital presence and compete online.
Sponsored by Kula Partners—an agency committed to helping leading B2B manufacturers craft digital experiences that transform how they engage buyers, serve customers, and outpace their competition—The Kula Ring podcast features conversations about marketing, sales, and technology with top manufacturing executives from across North America.
The Kula Ring podcast is co-hosted by Kula Partners principals, Carman Pirie and Jeff W. White, both of whom are frequently sought after for their digitally-focused B2B expertise. They regularly share their insights with audiences including conferences like B2B Online and HubSpot’s INBOUND, the Gardner Manufacturing Marketer blog, and other podcasts focused on B2B marketing and technology.
In this episode of The Kula Ring, manufacturing content veteran David Holliday, Director of Product Marketing at ProMach and founder at LabelingNews.com, shares his experience creating successful, problem-solving B2B content. Among his top tips: own your platform, build your personal brand, think long-term, and don’t try too hard to rank—be a problem-solver instead.
Troubleshooting + Time: Tips For Manufacturing Content Success Transcript:
Announcer: You’re listening to The Kula Ring, a podcast made for manufacturing marketers. Here are Carman Pirie and Jeff White.
Jeff White: Welcome to The Kula Ring. My name is Jeff White, and joining me today is Carman Pirie. Carman, how are you doing, sir?
Carman Pirie: You know, Jeff, I’m doing pretty well. I was recently guesting on a podcast, and I think I was half coming down with a cold at the time or something, but the host was thinking that I had a Leonard Cohen-esque voice, which I don’t, but I loved getting the compliment at the time, and I’m now thinking that I want to just… I may take up smoking, just so that I can get a really raspy voice for these things. I mean, I think-
Jeff White: Was Leonard a smoker? Or did he just have a great voice?
Carman Pirie: I don’t know. Just had a great voice. I don’t know.
Jeff White: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: And I’m not… He had to have been a smoker.
Jeff White: Well, he’s from Montreal.
Carman Pirie: Yeah, and he’s very cool, or he was. So, it kind of like-
Jeff White: I don’t think you can say that anymore.
Carman Pirie: One kind of begets the other. Well, I think that’s just the way it was, though, at the time.
Jeff White: Yeah. Yeah. You’re probably right.
Carman Pirie: Anyway, we can try to work on our radio voices maybe for another episode.
Jeff White: For another episode, but I think we have somebody on the podcast today who’s at least as cool as Leonard Cohen.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. I agree.
Jeff White: You know, so that’s certainly a plus for us, anyway.
Carman Pirie: Yeah.
Jeff White: So, joining us today is David Holliday. David is the 58th most visionary marketer in packaging, and part of the superhero leadership team at ProMach labeling and coding, also known as the Director of Product Marketing there. Welcome to The Kula Ring, David.
David Holliday: Hey, thank you so much. It’s very good to be here. Very much appreciated.
Carman Pirie: For our listeners, you should know that this recording of The Kula Ring is intended to propel David’s career into the 40s of the most visionary marketers in packaging, versus the current 58th rank, so we’re excited for that.
Jeff White: Yeah, and I think we can really push this.
Carman Pirie: I think so. I think so.
Jeff White: Yeah.
Carman Pirie: David, would you do us the favor of introducing yourself, and tell us a bit about your work at ProMach? And maybe a bit of what the company is?
David Holliday: Absolutely. I’ll be very happy to do that. ProMach is a packaging equipment and services company. We’re actually quite large in the packaging industry. We have, I believe, a shade over 3,000 employees, and a total of over 40 manufacturing plants, so we’re hugely committed to manufacturing. Manufacturing plants are mainly in North America, but we also have facilities in Italy, France, Spain, and China, and I believe Brazil, as well, and there’s going to be more in the not-too-distant future, I’m sure.
But my part of ProMach is ProMach labeling and coding, which is one of six business lines that make up our organization, and we basically are involved in labeling and identifying products, and that can be labeling for marketing reasons with attractive flexo or digital labels put onto bottles and other kinds of products. A lot of our business is labeling for supply chains with barcoding for tracking and tracing of where products are, and also general product coding, so putting date, and lot codes, and barcodes on all kinds of products.
So, our customers are food and beverage, CPGs, medical companies, pharmaceutical companies. A very wide range. And I’m actually quite a new boy in the organization. I worked for a very small company in New Hampshire, around about 20 people, that was acquired by ProMach, and we were rolled into the ID Technology brand, which is where I am today, and I’m involved as part of the team in product management in marketing for our ID Technology, Greydon, EPI, and Code Tech brands. So, we’ve got an awful lot of good things going on, and hopefully we’ll get a chance to talk about some of those during this session.
Carman Pirie: Well, with any luck at all. Thank you for that overview. What’s interesting to us, well, a number of things, but one of the things that we chatted about in the workup to this show was this kind of really a longstanding commitment that you’ve had, and kind of passion towards social, starting with blogging, which I think is still on the go, and so I guess talk to me a bit about kind of the early days, because I think the blogging piece of your work really started back when you were that 20-person firm in New Hampshire, and now it’s now been leveraged and taken forward into the ProMach brand. Is that correct?
David Holliday: That’s absolutely correct, and our company blog, or the blog of labeling and coding is very imaginatively called labelingnews.com, and I actually started it way back in 2007, so I think I could claim to have been involved in content marketing since probably before Al Gore invented it, if truth be known.
Carman Pirie: Nice.
David Holliday: And one of the main reasons for doing that was that at that time, in the very small business, I was sales manager at the time, but finagled my way into handling marketing as well, and basically we had no budget for marketing, or very, very little. So, a lot of the more traditional marketing activities tend to need budgets to carry those out. One of the cool things with social and with blogging, certainly back in those early days, was that the cost really was time and effort, rather than dollars. So, for a small company, that was a really good way to get started.
So, I started the Labeling News blog back in 2007, and I actually checked yesterday, just so that I would have some answers ready for today, and we have over 900 articles published in Labeling News. I’d be the first to admit that they’re of very varying quality, but there’s over 900 of them, and it’s for a long time been the centerpiece of what we use for our digital marketing, both in the previous company and here at ProMach.
Jeff White: Would you say that your proficiency with social and with content creation was one of the things that made the company you were with in New Hampshire appealing to ProMach?
David Holliday: I think that we had a number of reasons that we appealed to ProMach. One of our goals in ProMach, that’s a goal to this day, is to expand our network of label converting or label manufacturing plants, and that’s basically what we had in New Hampshire. Today, ProMach has a total of seven label manufacturing plants. In fact, we acquired a new business that gave us number seven just last week, so that’s a growing part of what we do. But I like to think, and there’s no one here to contradict that, so I think I can safely say it, is that the marketing programs that we put together, and the visibility that we were able to build up for such a small entity was something that ProMach found attractive among other things. So yes, I think that probably quite true.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. I mean, I think that it can really help you punch above your weight, especially in a category or general industry environment that really isn’t all that hip to blogging in 2007, that’s for sure.
Jeff White: Yeah, and even now.
Carman Pirie: Yeah.
Jeff White: I mean, it’s certainly, to be consistent enough over 12 years to produce over 900 pieces of content is remarkable. It doesn’t… It’s very difficult to kind of see the value, and understand it, without having been doing it for that long. You know what I mean?
Carman Pirie: Well, let’s talk about that. When you look at the long-term value of the blog, how would you, how do you express that?
David Holliday: I think that it has a lot of value, and has done for some time, and to me, one of the great things certainly with getting started with that, apart from the fact that for the cost of just a hosting cost you can set up something like that virtually for free, what I really like, and this is where I think having your own blog is a step above posting to any of the social networks, and I’m sure we’ll talk about that in a few minutes, is that it’s a piece of property that you basically own. And you don’t have to worry about changes in algorithms, or annoying a social media site, and then deleting your account, or anything like that.
So, it’s a piece of online property that you own, rather like a more traditional website, but you can also be way more creative in the kind of content that you put there, and try and steer it towards what you believe customers in certain positions are likely to have an interest in. And so, I’ve always used it as a centerpiece of the digital marketing program, so having a content on the Labeling News site really worked out well, because we can link to it from the company LinkedIn account, or individual LinkedIn accounts, from other social media accounts, and also use it for downloads of documents, and information, and things like that.
So, I think there’s a lot of value that can be gotten out of it, but I also believe that if anyone sort of thinks it’s instant gratification, and you can write a few blog posts and start seeing some results tomorrow, I think that person is gonna be out of luck.
Jeff White: I think today especially, where so many organizations are producing content hand over fist, you know, it does become one of those long-term games, for sure. Talk to us a little bit about how you used to kind of come up with and create content for the blog, versus maybe how you do it today.
David Holliday: Okay, what I very much used to do is my content would quite often be very focused, and in fact it still is today, if I’m honest, on particular industries, particular problems that I would think that people in those industries would be likely to have. One example, back in my previous company, we did quite a lot of work with RFID labeling for the Department of Defense contractors. The Department of Defense has some rather complicated labeling rules that all of their contractors have to comply with, and a lot of them are confused, as are the people inside the Department of Defense who manage the contracts, as well.
So, we used our Labeling News platform as a way to educate people in those industries, and we’d also use it to publicize local seminars that we put on for people in the defense industry, or contractors to the defense industry, and that actually started almost from the beginning, back in 2007. And ironically, I actually had someone contact me by email, believe it or not, this very morning, who was looking for some information, having read a post that I posted on Labeling News in I think 2009, 2010. So, by making the content very specific to problems that people have, I think you can get a huge amount of value for that over a long period of time, which I think is really cool.
Carman Pirie: It is cool. I love when you can also tie it into a sales process, or when you’re asked a question during a sales process, and you can point the prospect to a blog post that you wrote about it 10 years ago. You know, just shows that you were thinking about it a lot longer than just-
Jeff White: Just entered their mind 10 minutes ago.
Carman Pirie: Yeah. Yeah. And it just establishes a lot of instant credibility.
David Holliday: I think so. I think that’s worked really, really well for us, and also, I look at a lot of corporate blogs, and one of the things that… I’m a big consumer of content, as well as someone who’s making content, so I’m always reading, and looking at what other people are doing, and I still see so many blogs and other content that almost seems to be more like a press release for the company, rather than content that’s aimed to what the intended user is likely to be interested in. And you know, not to say that press releases for the company are bad. I mean heck, we do a lot of them, but there’s a place for those, and there’s a place, I think, for the more conversational-type blog content.
Jeff White: Yeah. I think it can… For me, the purpose of a blog has always been to provide answers to questions, and create things that couldn’t otherwise be found out there, and to put your perspective on that, and I really agree with you that that’s a great place to start when it comes to crafting and creating this content. What would you say are some of the more popular posts that you’ve had, and in terms of traffic, and how old would those posts be?
David Holliday: That’s a great question, and in fact, the most popular post on our site, and out of those 900 or so of them, is a post that somebody who used to work part-time for us actually made many years ago, probably at least 10 years ago, and it was on the topic of what do you do when your barcodes don’t scan, which obviously is a problem that many people at various stages of the supply chains have. You have a barcode, either you’ve printed it or somebody else has printed it on your package, and you try to read it, and it doesn’t scan. And what are the reasons for that?
And that’s actually been, ever since we posted that, really popular. It probably accounts for about 20, 25% of our total page views, so that’s been really, really popular. I actually get a load of emails from people that have read it, asking me for technical support on various obscure barcode scanners and things like that that they might have. But it’s generated leads of different levels of quality from day one for probably 10 years. We do go back and update it from time to time. I’m always afraid of scaring it, of updating it too much, because Google obviously likes that page, and I’m somewhat afraid of changing the fundamental things that Google likes, but I do try and keep it updated from time to time, and it’s performed really well.
And we have some others sort of similar to that, that have performed really well, too. Interestingly, the ones that I write specifically with the intention of them performing well in Google often are the ones that don’t, and it seems to be the ones that are more organically written to solve the problems of a customer are the ones that work best, and get the best visibility, so there’s probably a lesson there, I think.
Carman Pirie: You know, it’s… I don’t know how often I hear that, but it’s just across the digital marketing discipline. It’s just like the thing that you think is going to move the needle-
Jeff White: Land.
Carman Pirie: … or land, versus the thing that actually does, yeah. They’re always two different things.
Jeff White: Well, and I mean, that’s the thing with blogging is that you end up creating a ton of content with really, even with 12 years experience doing it, you still cannot sit down and suggest, okay, I’m going to write this piece and know for absolute certain that it’s going to produce the kinds of results that you may have gotten with the why don’t my barcodes scan piece. You just don’t know.
David Holliday: That’s exactly right.
Jeff White: Which is why you have to create a lot of content, I guess, because half of them are gonna be duds.
Carman Pirie: And it’s a bit of a religious endeavor, you know? You need to believe in it in order to invest in it for 10 years. Right? And no, if you’re making decisions about ROI next quarter, this isn’t the conversation you should be listening to.
Jeff White: No. Exactly. David, I don’t want to lose sight of the fact that you mentioned you do go back and update those posts, and that’s always fraught with worry that you might wreck what made it actually popular, but what are the kinds of things that you look for in your analytics, or in the emails you get from potential customers, or leads that give you the fodder that you need in order to update that post? Or is it primarily going back and just making sure that you’re referencing modern technical machines or something?
David Holliday: Okay. That’s an interesting question, and how much time I spend on all of these things is obviously very contingent on other things I’m working on at the time. Marketing’s not a full-time career for me, actually. The biggest part of my business here is actually product management. So, we have a team of people that’s my team of really good product managers here, and we manage seven or eight different types of printing or labeling product, so I spend a lot of time in that area day-to-day, as well as what I try to do on the marketing side, and other things that I get to do in the company.
In fact, I think I was introduced to some people that were here the other day as the person in the organization who probably has the most fun at work, and I think that’s because I get to get involved in just about everything to some extent. So, there was a time when I used to agonize over my analytics for websites, and the blog, and things like that. Here at ProMach, being a much larger company, we have a partner, a third-party company, who does a fantastic job with managing the SEO, and the analytics, and putting the reports together for all of the ProMach websites, of which we have a lot, so I don’t get involved in that to the same extent that I have in the past. So, I’m not agonizing over what the analytics are, and what’s performing, so when I write something as a blog post, it’s usually something that I think is going to be useful for somebody.
Whether it’s talking about something new technology-wise, whether it’s talking about things that are happening in the industry generally, and I must admit I’m probably winging it more than I have in the past. And I’ve also branched out into some other things now. I don’t think I’m at the point where I’m competing with you folks’ podcast level, but we also have a Labeling News podcast that I’ve been putting together over the last few months, and that actually fits in very well with the Labeling News, the blog, as well, because there’s more content that can be shared between the two.
So, I’m not sort of micromanaging my analytics, and deliberately trying to make content to work well that way, probably because the ones where I didn’t do that seem to be the ones that work the best. So, I’m really producing content that I think is gonna work for people who might be interested in it, and then we’ll just see what happens.
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Carman Pirie: It’s a lovely instruction for folks, I think. Just if you approach it with that sentiment, you’re likely to get… I guess it’s kind of a get more flies with honey kind of approach.
David Holliday: I like it.
Carman Pirie: Let’s talk about the transition to podcasting here a bit. It strikes me that… I mean, because blogging is a… The heyday of blogging is a long time ago, in a land far away, and I feel in some ways once Google Reader was killed, and whenever… I don’t know. It just seemed like that magic that happened at that point in Web 2.0 kind of started going away. And podcasts were around then, but now they’re having a much larger resurgence, right? In some ways, I wonder if it’s just all of us that loved blogs, maybe we’re just inherently drawn to podcasts now or something.
But anyway, talk to me about the transition from, or not so much transition, but the shift in how you’re… in making content, and what your experience has been this far. Because I know an awful lot of manufacturers out there are starting podcasts. I chat with them literally weekly, and I think a lot of them are just… would be interested to hear the experience in the early days that you’ve had.
David Holliday: Okay, and my early days are still very early days. I believe I have something like six or seven episodes at the moment. It’s been a while since the last one, so I’m slacking there, and I remember reading in more than one place that most podcasts are abandoned after the seventh episode, so I need to get my act together on that. But-
Carman Pirie: You need to get over this hump, David.
David Holliday: Yes, yes, I need to do it. In fact, I’ve got sort of outlines in place for four or five more that I keep tinkering with, but never quite doing, so I really do need to get my act together. I think it’s to some extent, after blogging, and putting content together, and doing these 900 or so posts, it does get to the point I think sometimes where something sort of new is a little bit enticing, and so that’s, I think, why I’ve drifted over to that area. I listen to quite a lot of podcasts, where I actually get quite a lot of encouragement from. Although I was listening to a Gary Vee podcast yesterday where he claims that we all need to do 100 pieces of content a day, and I don’t think that’s gonna be happening over here anytime soon.
Carman Pirie: Yeah, we can-
Jeff White: Or for most people.
Carman Pirie: … leave him to do that, I think.
David Holliday: Yes, or his team. But in our case, one of the things that I’m a huge believer in, and I think I’m maybe jumping to something else that we may discuss a little bit further into this, but one of the things I’m a huge believer in is producing content that people on our team can share and amplify. And whether that’s something on the blog, or whether it’s something that’s a podcast, which always finds its way onto the blog, as well, obviously. So, producing the kind of things that people on our sales teams, on our marketing team would find interesting enough to want to share, and hopefully inspire them to do some similar things themselves, is I think important. And like all companies, as us older guys gradually fade away, and younger people come onto the team, then people are always more interested in some newer ideas, and podcasting and videocasting perhaps is something that is going to replace the basic blogging to some extent in the future.
Carman Pirie: I’d be curious, this first six or seven episodes that you’ve done, what have they been about, generally? Can you give me some examples?
David Holliday: Yeah, so I tend to always focus on things that I think are important, so some of them have been sustainability. In the packaging world, sustainability is something that’s actually brought packaging into the mainstream media over the last couple of years. So, sustainability is a big one. Serialization and traceability is a big one. Just about every industry now is looking at serializing their products, and putting track and trace systems in place. That was led by the pharmaceutical and the medical device industry, but that’s also coming in more into the food industry and other consumer products.
Barcodes is an important thing for us. Just about everything we do includes barcoding of one sort or another.
Carman Pirie: So, in these episodes, are you interviewing other company team members, or outside guests, or are you waxing poetic solo? What’s the format of the show?
David Holliday: So far, in just these few episodes, there’s really been all of the above. There’s been some with other people in the industry that we have a relationship with. One very much on sustainability. Some of our products are laser printers that don’t need any consumables, are very environmentally friendly, don’t use any inks, or chemicals, or things like that, so there’s some interviews with some folks from that industry. There’s an interview with somebody from the label printing and barcoding industry. We did one on the topic of labeling and coding for one of my favorite industries, the craft beer industry, where the victim who was my interviewee for that was actually somebody who’s part of our sales team here.
And then there’s been some where it’s just been just myself talking, hopefully not too boring that people switch away. So, it’s kind of mixed up. One of the things that I want to do is as we grow the podcast, and being ProMach, having 30 brands, and a lot of people that are experts in their niches of the packaging industry, I think I have a lot of potential people to get, bring onto the show. But I wanted to make sure that I was better at doing it before I started doing interviews with people remotely, using something like ZenCast, or Zoom, or something like that. The interviews I’ve done so far, we’ve had the luxury of being in the same room.
Carman Pirie: That’s interesting. I must say, I’ve done them both ways. I’m not sure that I find the in-person ones to be easier.
Jeff White: Certainly, it presents weird challenges from an audio perspective, so-
Carman Pirie: Yeah, so I do think that it is this commonly thought thought, that-
Jeff White: Being face to face is better than… Yeah.
Carman Pirie: Yeah, or somehow easier. I’m not sure I’ve always found that the case when it actually comes to podcast production.
Jeff White: I do-
Carman Pirie: To the extent that our listeners care about that, but if you’re looking to set up a podcast, just food for thought, I suppose.
Jeff White: Yeah. David, one of the other things that you’ve been championing, a hard word to say, internally at ProMach is the use of LinkedIn, and kind of from a social perspective, and you alluded to this a little bit ago when you were talking about creating content that your sales team can share on platforms like LinkedIn. What have you been bringing to ProMach, in terms of the promotion of LinkedIn as a tool?
David Holliday: Okay. I’ve been a champion of this, because I’m a big believer that it’s to everybody’s advantage, and I think particularly if you work in… Obviously, if you work in marketing, it’s a no-brainer. But I think for the people that are on our sales teams, I think having an active online presence, and for business to business, clearly LinkedIn is where it’s at at the moment. Obviously that will change at some point, and there’ll be something different, but today, LinkedIn is where it’s at. So, I really encourage all of our salespeople to get involved, and build up their profile, and I see it often described as building your personal brand online, which I don’t think anyone really knows what that means.
So, I think of it more as building your online reputation, and building a presence in the industry, because I know that whenever I have an interaction with anyone, whether they’re trying to sell me something, or whether they want to work here, or anything like that, one of the first things I do is head off to LinkedIn and check out their profile, and learn a bit about them, and if they’re someone that’s active there, great. You can see some of the things that they post about, and some of the things that they’re interested in, and it really lets you get to know people, so I really believe that that’s a great way forward for our sales teams, so at every opportunity, whether it’s at presentations, at our regional meetings, whether it’s we do a monthly or a bimonthly sales and marketing newsletter for all of our team where I actually include… I did one just a few weeks ago, including some examples of interaction with a post on LinkedIn… You can have two posts that are quite similar, but if one say has twice as much interaction, whether it’s likes, or shares, or whatever, than the other one, just showing the number of views and how each one can grow, I think is quite astounding.
And at least for today, it’s free, and it takes very, very little time, so I certainly would suggest that any of our salespeople start going around the country and meeting face to face with their customers, but I think that them getting more involved in the social selling side, I think is a huge advantage for them, and really can help them with those customer engagements. By doing traditional sales and social selling, and running them concurrently.
Carman Pirie: Absolutely, and I would encourage folks to think about how they can extend that beyond the sales organization, too, into operations, engineering, et cetera. Some of those communities tend to congregate in different places. LinkedIn’s one, for sure, but you can even find very active subreddits, et cetera, in certain more operational categories, but having kind of… as the B2B buying group continues to increase in size, and there’s a lot of different people, and a lot of different titles coming to the table to make buying decisions, it’s important for organizations to look at how they can create those relationships and tentacles that beyond sales, and marketing, even to the c-suite, and to elsewhere within operations, so I think that’s great advice.
Jeff White: Quite right.
David Holliday: Yes. Yes. Very much so. And it’s like blogging, and everything else in the digital marketing world, is that you don’t see instant ROI by putting some effort in on those areas. It can take a long time, so some people can be somewhat skeptical about whether it’s worth making that investment, but I honestly think that as long as it doesn’t interfere with what your basic job functions are, it can only be a win.
Jeff White: Quite right. Well, I think we’re kind of coming to the end of our time here together. I’d just like to close this out with one last question. What are you… You’ve obviously been at this for a while, and you have a lot of different roles within ProMach. What are you excited about for the future at ProMach, and what’s next?
David Holliday: Yes, actually that’s a great question, and yes, I’ve been doing this stuff for a while. I actually started in the labeling and packaging business back in the ‘70s, so don’t let anyone tell you that all of this digital stuff is just for young people. But one of the cool things that’s happening in ProMach right now, and it’s kind of being rolled out as we speak, is because we’re a company that’s been built by acquisitions, we have a lot of different brands that have all been using their own sales, marketing, or CRM solutions, and to get everything on one track, we’re rolling out salesforce.com as our CRM for the whole company, which is gonna be… Well, it’s rolling out now, actually. I think we’re due to be online with that sometime in November, and by sometime in the new year, the entire organization will be using Salesforce. So, just that, and being able to share information between the different brands in ProMach is going to be huge.
Then we’ve also, as part of the Salesforce install, we’ve invested in Pardot, as well, so that we can beef up on marketing automation, and how we manage campaigns, because today, it’s very arbitrary. And I’ve always been a big believer that what I always think of as micromarketing, but I guess it’s more commonly known as account-based marketing, of being able to tailor your marketing efforts to a particular industry, or a particular company, or a particular group of people in a company, or maybe even sometimes to a particular one person, is just so much more valuable than producing generic content, and sending it out to hundreds or thousands of people, and expecting to see some results for that, because obviously you’re not going to, because we’re really good at deleting things like that.
So, I’m really excited as to how we can start to use that, and make our marketing, both our traditional marketing and our digital marketing, way more focused on the needs and solving the problems of particular groups of customers. I think that’s going to be really, really big for us.
Carman Pirie: It’s gonna be exciting for you to have that capability. I think an awful lot of manufacturing organizations that grow through M&A find themselves in that disjointed tech stack world that you are living in right now, and just in the process of solving, so exciting times ahead.
David Holliday: Exactly. Yes. We’re very excited with that. And then, also to add to that, on the social selling side, we’re experimenting at the moment with LinkedIn Sales Manager, which I think will be a good compliment to what we’re doing on Pardot and as part of the Salesforce CRM. We’re doing that on a pretty small scale at the moment, but if that goes well, and I know that for LinkedIn Sales Navigator to really be effective, it needs the people that are using it to be active on LinkedIn in the first place. So, I’m hoping that rolling out Sales Navigator will get more people active on LinkedIn, too. So, I see that as a win-win for ProMach, and a win for me, as well.
Jeff White: Very cool. Well, thanks again for joining us today, David. It’s been really interesting and exciting to hear about what you’ve been up to for such a long time, and the successes you’ve had with it, and thanks for joining us in The Kula Ring.
David Holliday: Hey, thank you. Thank you so much for the invite. It was all good fun.
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